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Old 04-11-2018, 11:16 AM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 24 days ago)
 
18,708 posts, read 6,807,738 times
Reputation: 3518

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Then your god must be created.

If you make a special case for your god (and special pleading is not logical), then you need to explain why the universe needs a creator.
OK. If you wish to concede that the universe was created by a god that was created, that's a start.

Are you willing to do that?
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 19,996,213 times
Reputation: 14068
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
OK. If you wish to concede that the universe was created by a god that was created, that's a start.

Are you willing to do that?
You're fighting above your weight class. Again. Still.

But do carry on. I look forward to HD's replies.
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:43 AM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 24 days ago)
 
18,708 posts, read 6,807,738 times
Reputation: 3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
You're fighting above your weight class. Again. Still.

But do carry on. I look forward to HD's replies.
And you're still spouting off where you're not invited. But that's pretty typical and I've come to expect it.
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 19,996,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
And you're still spouting off where you're not invited. But that's pretty typical and I've come to expect it.
Lol.
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Old 04-11-2018, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Germany
16,578 posts, read 4,864,291 times
Reputation: 2060
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Yes an "idea" with no real support or evidence that it has occurred in anyway but by direction. This is the problem that science has, nothing can be proven to occur without human intervention, testing, etc. It ALWAYS requires outside interference and never happiness on its own except by ... claims it did.

Every test, every change that has been made in any life form has required outside intelligence. Creation in effect. No test has ever shown a change from one kind to another, just changes in the same kind of life and .... when the changes go far enough they come to a dead end eliminating any ability to become something else. In other words no water dwelling fish can ever become a full time land animal.
All said with no real support or evidence, while ignoring the scientific evidence we do have.
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Old 04-11-2018, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Germany
16,578 posts, read 4,864,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
I'm just talking philosophy. I haven't quoted Scripture to you to try to prove my point. I wouldn't do that because I realize atheists don't believe Scripture.

I'm pointing out that the only logical explanation that we have for the existence of the universe is that it was caused/created. I'm not suggesting that such evidence points to the Christian God as the one whom did it, nor am I suggesting that you should become a Baptist based on observing the night sky. I'm merely saying that unless you can give me a logical, reasonable solution to how the universe exists, the next most logical explanation is that it was created.
Do natural forces create things? Yes.

Do intelligent beings just exist for no reason? No.

Therefore it is far, far, far more probable there is a natural explanation rather than a god did it.
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Old 04-11-2018, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Germany
16,578 posts, read 4,864,291 times
Reputation: 2060
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
OK. If you wish to concede that the universe was created by a god that was created, that's a start.

Are you willing to do that?
No. I'm willing to concede the universe may have been created by a god (or something we would think of as god like).

I think it is most unlikely, based on the evidence, maths, logic, usw.
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Old 04-11-2018, 01:29 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 6,027,335 times
Reputation: 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
I'm just talking philosophy. I haven't quoted Scripture to you to try to prove my point. I wouldn't do that because I realize atheists don't believe Scripture.

I'm pointing out that the only logical explanation that we have for the existence of the universe is that it was caused/created. I'm not suggesting that such evidence points to the Christian God as the one whom did it, nor am I suggesting that you should become a Baptist based on observing the night sky. I'm merely saying that unless you can give me a logical, reasonable solution to how the universe exists, the next most logical explanation is that it was created.
Philosophy is another forum too. But alright. So what is the logical explanation for a God? Logically, by your line, it would be that it was caused/created. Otherwise, it is NOT logical and thus couldn't serve as a "logical" explanation.

Like I said, the universe can be as logical or illogical as a God or any other postulated thing.

Everything in our universe is caused, nothing is created (except for those quantum particles that seem to create themselves based on the let's call them "null rules" of the "as nothing as we can get" space-time fabric).

So why would we say that the universe is created exnihilo? Why would that be logical? It wouldn't from your line of thinking.

The universe would then need to be "caused" by a change of a pre-existing God or Karma (or whatever else before a universe), and that would be panentheism. And you being mean to an animal would be you being mean to a part of God/Karma/etc. Which would technically be true even in Exnihilo creation (since creation would always be indirectly part of the creator), but with panentheism, it would be specifically direct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Do natural forces create things? Yes.

Do intelligent beings just exist for no reason? No.

Therefore it is far, far, far more probable there is a natural explanation rather than a god did it.
Indeed. But with the idea being that natural forces "change" things, not necessarily "create" (except if you include the quantum particles that seem to come into being from the "as nothing as we can get.")
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Old 04-11-2018, 03:52 PM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 24 days ago)
 
18,708 posts, read 6,807,738 times
Reputation: 3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
No. I'm willing to concede the universe may have been created by a god (or something we would think of as god like).

I think it is most unlikely, based on the evidence, maths, logic, usw.
Ok. So what is the alternative explanation that is more likely?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Do natural forces create things? Yes.

Do intelligent beings just exist for no reason? No.

Therefore it is far, far, far more probable there is a natural explanation rather than a god did it.
If there was a natural cause for the universe other than an intelligent being, the question must be asked how that cause came about?
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Old 04-11-2018, 06:00 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,474,239 times
Reputation: 5926
There is a possible explanation, but I think you'd just wave it away, but even if there wasn't one, that would not mean that Goddunnit has to be the answer.
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