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It is a good thing that God is spirit and not limited by our understanding of Him. It is good that God is outside of time and not limited by this bubble (of time and space) that he created for us to live in. It is good that he came in human form to connect us with the father as Jesus Christ. God is good is he not?
no question about his goodness, but no appreciation conveyed with this thought.
no question about his goodness, but no appreciation conveyed with this thought.
Oh! BTW I appreciate Him as well. I appreciate his manifold blessings. I appreciate his Son Jesus Christ who came and died for our sins. I appreciate his unending, love for us.
Remember: "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us".
Oh! BTW I appreciate Him as well. I appreciate his manifold blessings. I appreciate his Son Jesus Christ who came and died for our sins. I appreciate his unending, love for us.
Remember: "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us".
I hope that quote does not exaust you either!
- we're on the same page. just meant to say that in this case, the words you quoted did not spark the light you may have hoped them to do.
no malice intended. communication in writing is limited. imho.
Just a house-keeping note to start with: I see folks who hit the Quote button as a means of answering some points in a thread or post. This will, as you know, re-paste The Entire Post.
Just in case you aren't aware, you might wish to try, as an alternate, highlighting the part of a post that you want to respond to, and then hit the "+ icon down on the lower right. You can go through a number of posts, and select specific lines from each. Then, hit the POST REPLY button down lower left. It will assemble all of your individual selections, re-posting JUST YOUR PREVIOUSLY HIGHLIGHTED selections, and you can then comment, item by item. Otherwise, I'm not sure why someone would post an entire prior post, (especially my novellas) and then add just a two or three line comment that doesn't even necessarily relate to anything in particular.
But, don't take this as any sort of criticism; I'm just assuming some might not know about this handy feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Our quest for answers to origins of life must also be an instinctive trait otherwise how does one seek out answers to questions?
I think it's an obvious outgrowth of our evolved ability to think in abstracts. In other words, to consider things not superficially available, that not "right there in front of us". To think of future possibilities, and then, as an outgrowth of that, what the consequences might be when we think "What if such and such happens", or "But if we did such and such, we could positively affect our future success/survival/wealth, etc."
... conformance to the pack mentality where the needs of the pack outweigh the needs of the individual and you take orders from the pack leader. This is achieved with basic reward and punishment techniques and subtle powers of suggestion.
And subsequent survival success, of course. When I read this idea of yours, Seeker, I immediately pictured a bunch of chimps, or of mountain gorillas, sitting around and grunting. Interestingly, many Christian interpretations are that these sounds are all just simplistic warnings or infant-level babblings.
We now know, from careful studies, that there is a wealth of communicatin' goin' on. It was/is the origins of communicative thought, the highest form (hee hee) now expressed here on City-Data, absent the grunting.
I guess my dawg is also religious as he used to like singing along with me when I played my guitar or when the ice cream van comes past our house.
Love the image! A vastly spiritual doggie! Nice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk
It is a good thing that God is spirit and not limited by our understanding of Him. It is good that God is outside of time and not limited by this bubble (of time and space) that he created for us to live in. It is good that he came in human form to connect us with the father as Jesus Christ. God is good is he not?
And yet, NIKK, many do claim to understand Him, to the extent of providing us with exact interpretations and absolutestatements of what His intents were, and of how He's proven things to us. It's the basis for their beliefs; that interpretation by The Church, and they certainly claim inerrancy in their interpretations.
My Point: If the ID folks choose to engage in a discussion of our existance on a point-by-point intellectual level, you must necessarily come to the logical problems I carefully listed for discussion in my OP.
Rather than discussing my points, NIKK, you have just gone directly to the default position: His spirit & abilities are so far above ours, we cannot (should not?) think about them, and we are not here to discuss or try to understand Him. You also default to the idea that He came in human form, somehow different vrom his own, and yet, we're also told, we were made in His image. and he's pictured often as "the hand of god", white beard and all.
You've evaded the critical and logical discussion entirely.
Back to my point: why? Why does a super intelligence bother with this? With such a spectacular intellect, He seems to have wasted a lot of it in making what exactly? This Earth, un-unique in a Universe of trillions of other planets, inhabited by people with a proven desire to slaughter each other over their various "inerrant" spiritual interpretations?
Remember: we humans are only "special" in our own arrogant minds. We're really nothing special, other than having the most abstract intellect on this particular planet. Then we extend this petulant concept to the entire universe, claiming some sort of ill-defined superiority. Boy, arent' we in for a little surprise some day!
In fact, we may be mental cockroaches relative to the intellectual capabilities of some other intelligence in the universe, from another planet, but with, say, another 150 thousand years of intellectual evolution under their belts. (If they even wear belts...).
Simply put, my premise on this thread;it's all toocomplex to have been designed by any one intellect. Rather, for whatever reasons, it !!!BANGED!!! into existance,
...and the laws of the universe, physics and all, that we have since begun to try to understand (with some success BTW) will eventually, possibly, likely, explain it all. No hyper-intelligence (other than ours) required.
Our unending quest to understand it all is likely just a result of our evolved intelligence and capacity to think in abstract terms. But to Seeker's point, it would then also be an inherited trait, once it evolved and was encoded for posterity in our DNA. Perhaps more in some than in others? That's quite possible, in fact, probable & likely, within a mutating DNA system.
Perhaps some need a more thorough, less mystical explanation, and buy into "God's mysterious ways" less than others? Not better, just different. Some are evolved & destined to be leaf eaters, others grasses only, and still others are defined as carnivores. That organic basis would explain a lot of why we argue with such ferocity.
That intellectual capability will probably be traced to detectable and measurable circuitry in our brains sooner or later (of course it will, because even if it were "designed", it still exists and works, and it's not magic after all...), and someone will construct an organic intellect device that uses cellular interactions versus brass or gold wires & transistors.
And then a an artificial intelligence with the ability to grow, organically, and improve itself. Then, lookout Universe! Hide from The Brain!
As to the OP, is the universe intelligent, seeings how we all are part of this universe and we all are constructed of matter that came from the universe, common sense would have to agree that the universe is intelligent. If one takes on the perspective that all life on "this" planet does exhibit, to some degree, a form of intelligence how can common sense say that the universe is not intelligent.
As to the OP, is the universe intelligent, seeings how we all are part of this universe and we all are constructed of matter that came from the universe, common sense would have to agree that the universe is intelligent. If one takes on the perspective that all life on "this" planet does exhibit, to some degree, a form of intelligence how can common sense say that the universe is not intelligent.
I would agree with that, for the planet at least, not sure of the universe just because I do not know enough about it. It seems that in certain ways that the planet itself is a living being, not just the rock and soil, but all life on the planet appears to be interconnected in many different ecosystems and that for the most part the ecosystems themselves are all linked in someway or another. I have always thought of looking at earth only by viewing different lifeforms and ecosystems was kind of like looking at the human body and only seeing the heart, brain, circulatory system, endocrine system etc. sort of an incomplete picture if you will. In addition to seeing earth as one living thing in a certain way. I would also argue that it has its own intelligence that is evidenced through evolution. When a problem arises this macro lifeform via evolution adapts to save and regulate itself. i.e. when plant life existed alone and was producing too much oxygen creating massive fires, animal life appeared to control plant life, and consume oxygen thus averting a potential disaster.
To rifleman's point, I have noted over the years the incredulity of my Christian friends as to why others did not believe in God. This I noticed especially when I was an active member of a congregation of quite devout fellow worshippers. They were obviously very satisfied with their beliefs, and couldn't figure out why these others were always questioning.
Having been shown the basics of evolution (sorry, rifleman, I know; it's Evolution), I now see how everything that is physically and mentally "us" can be encoded and be hereditary. The innate behavior and responses of many very young animals is a good example.
Maybe the pure scientists are just running a different version of software (Reality v3.2.5) versus whatever the more spiritual but less inquisitive are happily running? Of course we all know what happens when you try to marry different versions. It's called a crash, right?
Or perhaps it's more like Macs versus PCs? Never the twain shall meet?
To rifleman's point, I have noted over the years the incredulity of my Christian friends as to why others did not believe in God. This I noticed especially when I was an active member of a congregation of quite devout fellow worshippers. They were obviously very satisfied with their beliefs, and couldn't figure out why these others were always questioning.
Having been shown the basics of evolution (sorry, rifleman, I know; it's Evolution), I now see how everything that is physically and mentally "us" can be encoded and be hereditary. The innate behavior and responses of many very young animals is a good example.
Maybe the pure scientists are just running a different version of software (Reality v3.2.5) versus whatever the more spiritual but less inquisitive are happily running? Of course we all know what happens when you try to marry different versions. It's called a crash, right?
Or perhaps it's more like Macs versus PCs? Never the twain shall meet?
.... and - thank heavens - take this thotful1 insight shared with RFLMN for granted, just waiting for it to be delivered in this inscrutinably wonderful jargon ....
I see where you're headed with this, but i have a feeling you're going to hear something along the lines of, "God is not constrained by the laws of this universe, and can there fore do any thing" or something similar
You're right. And that is my answer. God is bigger than the universe...he created it, and he has the power to micro-manage it.
As to the OP, is the universe intelligent, seeings how we all are part of this universe and we all are constructed of matter that came from the universe, common sense would have to agree that the universe is intelligent. If one takes on the perspective that all life on "this" planet does exhibit, to some degree, a form of intelligence how can common sense say that the universe is not intelligent.
I think this is the common default, that having observed some order, one has to conclude something (instead of some process) put it in that order.
Rather, there was vast disorder initially. We see that in the passing meteorites, the other orbiting bodies in our own solar system. The moon compared to the Earth, for example. It didn't have the suitable environment for life to occur and then evolve, and so it remains as it is. You would hardly go to the moon and say "Oh yeah, man! This is soooo organized, so well designed!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent
It seems that in certain ways that the planet itself is a living being, not just the rock and soil, but all life on the planet appears to be interconnected in many different ecosystems and that for the most part the ecosystems themselves are all linked in someway or another.
Well, of course they are. But I think you are reversing the way it happened.
Complex ecosystems evolved from nothing, from a primordial near-nothing that happened to favor the development of a simple system which then built on itself much as a child builds ever-more complex Lego™ structures, because the system allows him to do so. The child didn't design the Lego™ system; he just takes advantage of it's obvious functionality. Just as with DNA/RNA.
We can look at DNA & it's ancestral cousin RNA and see exactly how they function any day in a lab.
(BTW, did any/many of you realize that tRNA is nearly identical in all living organisms? Scientists have tranfered plant tRNA into animals cells, and it continues to function the same. Amazing bit of logical evidence of mutual ancestry, wouldn't you say?)
We know they are quite capable of encoding the mutations that we also know occur, and we can then watch them evolve more complex situations, organisms, etc. So, working backwards, in a DNA/RNA based system, how can you not realize that it was, therefore, simpler yesterday, last week, or about ten million years ago, than it is today? Do not ignore the pointing finger!
The child doesn't open the Lego box only to find the complete starship Enterprise in front of him. He has to learn how it works, try a few things that obviously don't work out, and finally, after a lot of trial and error, he gets it right. And then what does he do, if he has that certain exploratory mentality, that curiosity gene? Why, he experiments with his own completed and satisfactory version of that famed Starship, adding a device or two, to see if he can't possibly improve on it.
Just like DNA does.
I have always thought of looking at earth only by viewing different lifeforms and ecosystems was kind of like looking at the human body and only seeing the heart, brain, circulatory system, endocrine system etc. sort of an incomplete picture if you will.
I've never known anyone, certainly not in the life or geo-sciences, who looks at the Earth's complex ecosystems as anything other than an interactive organistic system, each having built on the success of a lesser, more simple system, in order to advance its complexity.
In addition to seeing earth as one living thing in a certain way. I would also argue that it has its own intelligence that is evidenced through evolution.
That, however, is a consequential reach. And a long one at that! Complexity does not demand intelligence. The crystal growths in a cave, though intricate, do not create a thinking cave. If the Earth could think, it would likely communicate. and I don't mean by Global Warming! And yet, it does not.
When a problem arises this macro lifeform via evolution adapts to save and regulate itself. i.e. when plant life existed alone and was producing too much oxygen creating massive fires, animal life appeared to control plant life, and consume oxygen thus averting a potential disaster.
That self-regulation is just a direct & logical consequence of the sytems that have arisen through experimentation, in their ability to adapt and adjust to possibly changing conditions. There's real limits to that ability though; a global nuclear war, with The US, Russia, China, France, Britain, and N. Korea (oh yeah, as well as Israel and Iran) ALL tossing out their entire nuclear arsenal at once, would render this little intelligent orb completely lifeless within about 6 months. No cave deep enough, etc. No "Earthly" intelligent response.
Simple existing feedback mechanisms with the plant and animal community, though seemingly awe-inspiring, are often just that: simple, easily explained feedback systems, evolved tens of millions of years ago, and continuing to this day, to better a plant's ability to survive droughts, fires, excessive rains, global cooling/warming, etc.
To attribute the end-result to a higher intelligence who purportedly designed it all in from the beginning? That flies in the face of not only our observations and research, but also in the looming and insistent face of Common Sense.
(PS: we also have proof, in the form of less-evolved but nonetheless still existant ancient plants, like equisetum sp., that are throwbacks to an earlier plant form. When we look at their DNA, we find an earler form of the DNA sequence maps evident in more modern plants.
BTW, if a person can read a book, as in a series of letters strung out in a very ordered and logical manner, and identify a complex passage within same (such as the beginnings of War & Peace, for example) and then compare it to an earlier version with say, typos, or awkward phrases, one can see the inerrant logic of DNA mapping as an indicator of prior "versions".
A: "itt wass the gooder of timess, it was the wsorser of timmes",
versus:
B: "it was the bestt of timess; it was the worstes of times."
or:
C: "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times."
Question: In what order were these written? You only get one try.
Thus we now backwards-map hominid evolution, for example, and this just as of the last two years or so, with this spectacular and "inerrant" technique. Nolo contendere, as the Romans used to say. (It means "no contest!").
It clearly points to prior lower levels of organization, no instant perfect and complete (and, to my OP, highlyunlikely) total insta-design, but rather an evolution (not the capitalized version) of the current design. The evidence is everywhere now that we have this amazing DNA mapping & direct comparison technique, which is largely ignored in the Christian dialogue.
Perhaps a new thread-topic? Anyone? Anyone?
Last edited by rifleman; 04-24-2009 at 11:03 AM..
Reason: clarifications
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- we're on the same page. just meant to say that in this case, the words you quoted did not spark the light you may have hoped them to do.
