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Old 04-23-2009, 12:46 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,188,571 times
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With all the Evo/creation threads going at the moment, I wa curious as to when this whole concept of the young earth creationism (YEC) evolved from.

In Africa, we pretty much had a British education in my day and nowhere were we taught anything on creationism and the evolution was merely touched on very lightly. Our sciences were pretty detailed on geology, botany, age appropriate reproduction, physics and chemistry. There was to my knowledge no pressure by any science teachers to take a stance against god or the bible. The two just never mixed in the classroom.

An hour or two a week was set aside for spiritual teaching that was convened as a guest speakers/priests from the differing faiths as we had a mixture of all faiths in the schools I attended. Unless you attended the RCC Christian Brother's College or Convent for girls, you pretty much were in a secular school.

In these sessions, the kids were split up and sent to different classrooms and in my case being non denominational - we had a pot luck speaker or we simply watched some National Geographic film. I guess I was lumped in with the atheists even back then We were the biggest group too.

So I googled a bit and it turns out this very much an American thingy - who would have guessed.

So where did you folk all go wrong?

From this link:Young earth creationism - encyclopedia article - Citizendium
History

The most popular creationist chronology was originally developed in 17th century England by Archbishop James Ussher (http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Archbishop_James_Ussher&action=edit&red link=1 - broken link), an Anglican, in 1651. (Many other dates had been calculated by similar methods.) Ussher calculated, using the chronologies given in the books of the Bible, that the first day of creation occurred on October 23, 4004 BC. His chronology appeared in the margins of English Bibles starting in 1701; however, the year 4004 BC was already well known among theologians.[1]

The Biblical story was not a contentious issue until the 19th century, when theologians started reinterpreting the Bible as a historical document (rather than divine revelation), and geologists such as James Hutton and Charles Lyell developed evidence, based on their analysis of geological processes and formations, the earth was not a few thousand years old but, in fact, several millions of years old.
In the 17th century, there definitely was no futurist version of eschatology trumpeted (pun intended) by the current evangelicals. However, there must have been some knowledge of a potential second coming of Jesus, that being a central tenet of the christian faith. I assume that this verse was pandered as to the "when" questions arose.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and of that hour, knoweth no man, nor even the angels of heaven, but the Father only.
One also assumes that the majority of the serfs were illiterate and thus would accept the word of the learned priest.

Now what is odd to me, in light of this no man knoweth, how was it possible to then to make a determined calculation of the origins of creation and get away with it? Science was by comparison to today in its infancy right?

So the origins of this teaching comes once again from footnotes or margin notes from early bibles.

There of course was the Snopes trial which you can read in the link but I quote:
By 1910 a new theology of "fundamentalism" had emerged among conservative Protestants, especially in the Southern Baptist church in the U.S. The theory of evolution had no role for God, and fundamentalists saw this as a threat to their core beliefs, and launched a campaign in the 1920s to stop the teaching of evolution, a campaign that continues into the 21st century.

They revived the 4004 BC dating and organized political opposition to the teaching of Darwinism in the public schools. The Scopes trial (http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Scopes_trial&action=edit&redlink=1 - broken link) took place in Tennessee, in 1925 and was seen as a watershed event in the creation-evolution controversy (http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Creation-evolution_controversy&action=edit&redlink=1 - broken link)
So there we have it folks. One mans opinion/calculation, essentially dismissed by most of the religious fraternity but them Southern Baptists revived a dismissed "theory." Not only that, but my guess is that the majority in 1925 were likely literate but were not all high school graduates. Hence the affluent who could afford it, their siblings went on to graduate from Yale and Harvard. Without looking it up, my guess is at that time, there were no christian based colleges and universities and although likely predominantly christian as a nation, the affluent were likely cafeteria christians and not fundamentalists. (please correct this if I am wrong)
Although Scopes lost the trial (his conviction was reversed), the resulting publicity brought the issue to the forefront of the minds of the American people and fundamentalists saw it as a humiliating set-back for their campaign.
So in light of this, we seem to have something that started in the last depression and I am sure if we look at the early tent meetings by early evangelists, the depression, the advent of WW1, folk were eager for some good news.

I would hazard a guess again that the futurist eschatology also stared more or less this time but post WW2 and specifically in 1948 with the advent of Israel 2.0, they really got thier steam up.

Looking for failed end time dates, oddly enough it also started in 1919
1919: Meteorologist Albert Porta predicted that the conjunction of 6 planets would generate a magnetic current that would cause the sun to explode and engulf the earth on DEC-17
See:Failed end of the world predictions from 30 to 2000 CE

There are a number of failed prophesies.

So what has eschatology to do with the YEC POV?

Well, the one works with the other and fear sells. Also, we have the dispensationalism also growing from this time based primarily on margin notes in the Schoefield bible.

This is something I never grew up with or was exposed to until I was 30 and in South Africa. And the proponent was a New Zealander Barry Smith who pretty much had the same spin as Hal Lindsey.

As science has advanced in techniques, it does appear that the YEC crowd are battling to bring anything plausible to the table to counter the Theory of Evolution.

Comments?

Last edited by SeekerSA; 04-23-2009 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:23 PM
 
1,788 posts, read 4,740,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
With all the Evo/creation threads going at the moment, I wa curious as to when this whole concept of the young earth creationism (YEC) evolved from.
Someone opened their bible, and added up the ages/generations of the people listed there, then added the modern date to it and came up with (translation: pulled it out of their arse) the fallacious number the YEC use to date the age of the earth.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:26 PM
 
4,655 posts, read 5,040,311 times
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I don't know how one could read the Genesis creation account, add up the number of years in the generations until Christ, and come up with the idea that it's millions of years old. It's just not possible--the text does not indicate that.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:42 PM
 
Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
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The Bible text was written by men who had no clue how old the earth or universe was. No clue. We have learned a lot since those days. As always, it comes down to the Bible, taking it as literal Godspeak or taking it as an historical account of those times. Same old same old...
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,495 posts, read 36,978,256 times
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Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I don't know how one could read the Genesis creation account, add up the number of years in the generations until Christ, and come up with the idea that it's millions of years old. It's just not possible--the text does not indicate that.
Kinda proves the bible wrong doesn't it?
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:14 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,188,571 times
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Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I don't know how one could read the Genesis creation account, add up the number of years in the generations until Christ, and come up with the idea that it's millions of years old. It's just not possible--the text does not indicate that.
Well how do then account for the fact that this was largely rejected by the mainstream of the day?

The origins date back to the 17th century and the Americans SB's revived it.

Why did they do that?

You see, much of what I have observed in debates on USA christian boards is many folk believe but have very little knowledge of where that doctrine stems from. If the RCC has opened the doors to evolution and only recently, why are you folk still hanging onto it.

Please do not give me the real christian(tm) pat answer.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
8,734 posts, read 13,759,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Well how do then account for the fact that this was largely rejected by the mainstream of the day?

The origins date back to the 17th century and the Americans SB's revived it.

Why did they do that?

You see, much of what I have observed in debates on USA christian boards is many folk believe but have very little knowledge of where that doctrine stems from. If the RCC has opened the doors to evolution and only recently, why are you folk still hanging onto it.

Please do not give me the real christian(tm) pat answer.
You need to add this book to your library.

Amazon.com: The Creationists: The Evolution of Scientific Creationism: Ronald L. Numbers: Books
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:37 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,188,571 times
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Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
Thanks - looks interesting
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:41 PM
 
4,655 posts, read 5,040,311 times
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Kinda proves the bible wrong doesn't it?
Not necessarily--it just means the Bible doesn't address it. The Bible doesn't explicitly state that it is 6000 years old...but doesn't state it's millions either. Logically, one can conclude based on the text, that it's roughly 6000-8000 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Well how do then account for the fact that this was largely rejected by the mainstream of the day?

The origins date back to the 17th century and the Americans SB's revived it.

Why did they do that?

You see, much of what I have observed in debates on USA christian boards is many folk believe but have very little knowledge of where that doctrine stems from. If the RCC has opened the doors to evolution and only recently, why are you folk still hanging onto it.

Please do not give me the real christian(tm) pat answer.
What is the basis for a belief of an earth that is millions of years old? What would someone in the middle ages base the belief on?

Based on the Bible, what passage would lead you to believe it is millions of years old? I don't see any verse.

Last edited by kdbrich; 04-23-2009 at 04:52 PM..
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:03 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,188,571 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
What is the basis for a belief of an earth that is millions of years old? What would someone in the middle ages base the belief on?

Based on the Bible, what passage would lead you to believe it is millions of years old? I don't see any verse.
Crazy questions but seeing you never bothered to answer mine obviously you do not know, here is your pat answer
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Thus by fundie logic:

6034 x 365 x 1000 = 2,202,410,000 days

2,202,410,000/365 = 6,034,000 years

OR

6034/1000 = 6 days so it all happened on 18 April 2008

There you wanted a biblical answer, I spin it anyway I want.

But of course that is all BS is it not?

Moon rocks show age of 4.5Bn years thus the earth must be at least the same age or older.
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