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I did not just have physical sensations like the people in that experiement, however. I saw myself and the scene. That was my point. I think Taz was saying "imagining/making it up" in reference to my mind doing that. If my mind was, essentially, tricking me with a visual "illusion", how was it able to do that when I am "mentally blind"?
I'm not saying that it validates that some part of me actually left my body, but it does give me pause.
I don't know anything about mental blindness. I have no idea if mental blindness would affect the ability to have an OBE. Good questions for a neuroscientist!
I don't know anything about mental blindness. I have no idea if mental blindness would affect the ability to have an OBE. Good questions for a neuroscientist!
I did not just have physical sensations like the people in that experiement, however. I saw myself and the scene. That was my point. I think Taz was saying "imagining/making it up" in reference to my mind doing that. If my mind was, essentially, tricking me with a visual "illusion", how was it able to do that when I am "mentally blind"?
I'm not saying that it validates that some part of me actually left my body, but it does give me pause.
I would actually come at this from the other direction, and say that since you can actually see (assuming here that you are not physically blind due to some sort of neural inability to process visual nerve impulses...), your brain is capable of experiencing and processing vision. Simply because you do not normally do so when imagining or remembering, does not necessarily imply that your brain is incapable of creating these sorts of images out of whole cloth in extraordinary circumstances...
The idea that actual optical vision can happen without lens, retina, or neurons involved seems to be a much bigger leap than the idea that a biological system that can store and retrieve sensations and ideas, and sense and interpret visual phenomena could essentiall misfire, and perceive something that is not actually true in during a traumatic event...
-NoCapo
P.S. I heard this on the radio the other day, and thought of it. The book "The Man Who Wasn't There" is a book about our perception of self, and what is going on in the brain in people who dissociate from part or all of their body, or who have no perception of the self and believe they don't exist. These are sort of extreme variations of being "out of body". I found it fascinating.
I would actually come at this from the other direction, and say that since you can actually see (assuming here that you are not physically blind due to some sort of neural inability to process visual nerve impulses...), your brain is capable of experiencing and processing vision. Simply because you do not normally do so when imagining or remembering, does not necessarily imply that your brain is incapable of creating these sorts of images out of whole cloth in extraordinary circumstances...
The idea that actual optical vision can happen without lens, retina, or neurons involved seems to be a much bigger leap than the idea that a biological system that can store and retrieve sensations and ideas, and sense and interpret visual phenomena could essentiall misfire, and perceive something that is not actually true in during a traumatic event...
-NoCapo
But it might imply just that. It's fine to come at it from a different direction, and you may be correct... but you might not.
P.S. I heard this on the radio the other day, and thought of it. The book "The Man Who Wasn't There" is a book about our perception of self, and what is going on in the brain in people who dissociate from part or all of their body, or who have no perception of the self and believe they don't exist. These are sort of extreme variations of being "out of body". I found it fascinating.
I'm pretty sure there was a Grey's Anatomy episode about that.
But it might imply just that. It's fine to come at it from a different direction, and you may be correct... but you might not.
Sure, but as I pointed out, the alternative requires you to totally rethink everything we know about our senses. How can you see from a vantage point in midair? There is nothing there to sense the light required for vision... How would those electrical signals that are required to stimulate the brain get to the brain from whatever invisible sensory apparatus is postulated?
Is isn't impossible, but it seems to me that one would have to be predisposed to that particular answer to leap to that conclusion, rather than explain the phenomenon in terms of what we already know.
But I can see how someone who is already convinced by their own experience that disembodied souls are a thing, that the mind can sense independently of its biological apparatus, or that consciousness is not intrinsically tied to the body could find it a plausible explanation. I just can't come at it from that standpoint, it doesn't make any sense to me, but as you point out, I cannot prove it is impossible, just that the evidence doesn't seem to point that way...
I'm pretty sure there was a Grey's Anatomy episode about that.
Might have been... It was fascinating, though, hearing about people who genuinely felt they didn't exist, they they were dead or ghosts. It was also interesting that they could find some specif patterns in brain activity that tend to correlate with these issues.
Sure, but as I pointed out, the alternative requires you to totally rethink everything we know about our senses. How can you see from a vantage point in midair? There is nothing there to sense the light required for vision... How would those electrical signals that are required to stimulate the brain get to the brain from whatever invisible sensory apparatus is postulated?
Is isn't impossible, but it seems to me that one would have to be predisposed to that particular answer to leap to that conclusion, rather than explain the phenomenon in terms of what we already know.
But I can see how someone who is already convinced by their own experience that disembodied souls are a thing, that the mind can sense independently of its biological apparatus, or that consciousness is not intrinsically tied to the body could find it a plausible explanation. I just can't come at it from that standpoint, it doesn't make any sense to me, but as you point out, I cannot prove it is impossible, just that the evidence doesn't seem to point that way...
-NoCapo
I'm not convinced of anything one way or another. I've always considered my experience to be some sort of weird brain glitch triggered by emotional distress and didn't give it a ton of thought beyond that. The mental blindness connection just dawned on me today and, like I said, it gives me pause.
Might have been... It was fascinating, though, hearing about people who genuinely felt they didn't exist, they they were dead or ghosts. It was also interesting that they could find some specif patterns in brain activity that tend to correlate with these issues.
-NoCapo
I did have one particularly severe panic attack where it "felt" like I was no longer real at all. I remember having tunnel vision at the time. I actually thought I might have died. I've heard of a known phenomenon called "depersonalization." Not sure if that's what was going on.
But who knows if my memories are even accurate. That was 10 years ago. If my brain was undergoing that much of a malfunction, who knows if the "memory forming" function was even working normally.
Yeah it's an anecdote.
Either way I'm very thankful to live in the scientific age. A thousand years ago I probably would have been burned at the stake or something.
Might have been... It was fascinating, though, hearing about people who genuinely felt they didn't exist, they they were dead or ghosts. It was also interesting that they could find some specif patterns in brain activity that tend to correlate with these issues.
-NoCapo
I really don't know enough about this stuff to say much. But if one is convinced that the physical world as we perceive is all there is, it would necessarily limit one's spectrum of inquiry.
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