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Your psychological belief in the efficacy of non-traditional healing method is based on your own personal positive experiences. Modern science would go one further and do double-blind tests on a large sample size, including simple "feel good" responses as valid but explicable for what they are. When such surveys are conducted, the results almost always confirm the positive benefits of feeling better spiritually as a part of the overall healing process, not to be denied.
That, of course, does not confirm the actual existence of some supreme entity. As well, those who do believe in such an entity will ignore the events where the evidence fails, is negative or is contrary to what they had hoped for and anticipated.
Scientists are taught to not read anticipated results into their own study results, or to pre-bias the design. It's hard. For the uneducated in such efforts, it's impossible; they want certain results and dang it, they'll find them even if they have to dig really deep!
I've actually done double-blind experiments. I have a friend who knows how to do energy work and I do too. We both tested on each other where some of the time we were "sending energy" and other times we weren't. And we waited to see if the other person felt anything or felt better. We both responded to when the person was actually sending energy. I perceive when he's actually sending energy vs. not actually sending any every single time without fail, and vice versa. We replay that experiment every time someone asks us about qi to show them. We've done it facing away from each other, blind-folded, and across the room from each other, so there is no body language or anything we're picking up on either.
I fully acknowledge that spiritual healing speeds up what is already the natural healing process. But even that in itself is something to me.
I don't claim that energy work or alternative medicine prove a Supreme being. In fact, I'm an atheist. So I'm not trying to say that there is a God. I just believe there is more to reality than what we can readily see, hear, and feel.
I've had out-of-body experiences where I could see perfectly even though my vision ranged from legally blind to light perception. I also could see at angles that did not line up with the location of my physical eyes. That is what sealed the deal for me in terms of believing in a spiritual realm or higher dimensions of reality. (I don't claim to have the exact explanation either. I just know there's "something there" so to speak.)
So without insulting each other and in the spirit of friendly and constructive debate, what has shaped your beliefs?
I have no beliefs. Beliefs are for people who think they should have beliefs. They apparently don't realize that beliefs aren't necessary. It is more important for them to believe than it is to think. This is probably due to their upbringing and a result of how they have been trained to think. It is this way in most countries - same song, different words.
Are you equating "belief" with just "faith"? (I'm guessing you are, since this is something that people often do, especially when talking about spiritual stuff.) But I find it a bit confusing cuz you seem to be talking in a very general sense. Would you still say you have "no beliefs" in light of the following definitions?
Merriam-webster.com defines belief as:
1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
And Wikipedia says:
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
Even if you are equating beliefs with faith, I am still skeptical when you say you have "no beliefs." I suspect you have beliefs that you just don't recognize as such – underlying assumptions that you take for granted.
"What Do You Consider To Be The Most Powerful Arguments For Your Belief Or Lack Of Belief?"
Well, I guess I'll bite into this question.
I basically don't believe in a god that interferes with human activity... at all. I don't believe in a god that gives a d*mn about humanity. If a god exist, he's like the god in the book The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy - unaware that it's even "god."
The reason I believe this is fairly simple. If I saw you, the reader, in dire straits, being brutally raped or assaulted, starving to death... etc, you can bet on it that I would do something about it. I would not stand aside and watch as someone hurt you. If I was "omnipotent" and "all-powerful" you can bet that I would not leave any doubt whatsoever, that I would be there for you when you needed me (no guessing, no leap of faith required - that's asking too much from people IMO). "God" does not offer you this. Think about all the people in the world who have suffered a brutal fate - the Dr. Petit's of the world whose family was raped and set on fire (google it, Dr. Petit, Conn.), the 5 year old girls who were raped, beaten, and strangled to death. "God" offered them nothing except standing on the sidelines watching... if he really existed, what kind of god would that be? Cruel? All-knowing? A "god" with a plan? Okay... whatever floats your boat...
So, I don't believe in a god because even if it did exist - in it's "all knowing" and "all powerful" existence, I would still have a hard time relating to an entity that does nothing while the weakest among us suffers.
Are you equating "belief" with just "faith"? (I'm guessing you are, since this is something that people often do, especially when talking about spiritual stuff.) But I find it a bit confusing cuz you seem to be talking in a very general sense. Would you still say you have "no beliefs" in light of the following definitions?
Merriam-webster.com defines belief as:
1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
And Wikipedia says:
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
Even if you are equating beliefs with faith, I am still skeptical when you say you have "no beliefs." I suspect you have beliefs that you just don't recognize as such – underlying assumptions that you take for granted.
I use "probability" instead of "belief". "Belief" implies acceptance without certainty whereas nothing is 100%.
So, for Mirriam #1, I may trust someone or be confident in something but in the back of my mind I realize there isn't a 100% guarantee. Just like when you ask someone who believes in god if it is at all possible, even 0.00000000000001% chance god doesn't exist, and they will say no, it isn't possible.
Ah, semantics. I try not to use the word 'believe' (or any of its variations) because it is rife with connotations, especially when discussing religion.
"What Do You Consider To Be The Most Powerful Arguments For Your Belief Or Lack Of Belief?"
Very good thread.
The most powerful argument for my belief is a discussion that I am able to have with the once child that I was. An individuals goodness, I contemplated will , not maybe, continue after death. Innocence is all.
Last edited by ClearNight; 12-10-2010 at 08:38 PM..
The most powerful argument for my belief is a discussion that I am able to have with the once child that I was. An individuals goodness, I contemplated will , not maybe, continue after death. Innocence is all.
I have trouble deciphering your odd grammar, but you seem to be saying: our goodness will continue after death. I might tend to agree if I understood what it meant. But in any case, it is not an "argument" for anything; it's just a statement
I'm surprised that no theists replied to my arguments. I gave them plenty to sink their teeth into. And mommabear's points about God letting people (esp. innocent children) suffer is also very powerful. I pointed to something similar in my statement about the "flood" - but in that case it wasn't just God letting people suffer, it was God actually causing a great deal of suffering.
Bottom line: The world simply makes no sense when you try to see it as all being a grand "plan" unless the plan is to just to create a chaotic system then step back and see what happens. Seriously: that is in only conception of God that is at least roughly consistent with reason and empirical evidence. As for some sort of life after death, that's a whole different concept that can work with either theism or atheism. I tend to think that consciousness, once it emerges, is probably "eternal" in a certain sense (i.e., whenever/however it can be functionally instantiated in an energetic system). I won't try to spell out an argument for that right now, but I guess I could, if people are interested.
Ah, semantics. I try not to use the word 'believe' (or any of its variations) because it is rife with connotations, especially when discussing religion.
Notice politicians start all sorts of sentences with "I believe..". It's a way of lying without lying.
What Do You Consider To Be The Most Powerful Arguments For Your Belief Or Lack Of Belief?
Well, I am a practicing and devout Atheist and in all probability, the bible is the most powerful argument for atheism I have read.
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