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Old 08-10-2009, 07:15 AM
 
15,287 posts, read 4,916,643 times
Reputation: 3573
Quote:
Originally Posted by teejuris View Post
FYI: Christians believe homosexuality IS a choice. Hence, one cannot be "born gay".
And, for us, Christians are what we were destined to be, so our spirituality IS NOT a choice.

Finally, it's not about religion; it's about relationship. Religion is a category.
Matthew 19:11-12
Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs ( ευνουχοι ) because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

The term “eunuchs” ( ευνουχοι ) did not refer to just castrated males. Otherwise how would they be “born that way”? They were also men who were born without a desire for women. The quote below from Ulpian shows that the Romans were aware of men who were "eunuchs" who were not physically castrated.

"Where a woman marries a eunuch, I think that a distinction must be drawn between a man [a eunuch] who has been castrated and one [a eunuch] who has not, so that if he has been castrated, you may say that there cannot be a dowry; but where a man [a eunuch] has not been castrated, there can be a dowry and an action for it, because a marriage can take place here.” -Ulpian (Roman Jurist c. 170 – 228 AD) From the Journals of Emperor Justinian.

Of course there were people like the early church author Origen, who took this to the extreme and literally castrated himself. I guess he thought it would get him into the “kingdom of heaven” .

Last edited by Ceist; 08-10-2009 at 07:39 AM..

 
Old 08-10-2009, 07:38 AM
 
15,287 posts, read 4,916,643 times
Reputation: 3573
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertjohnson View Post
You need to read more. The group you refer to as anti gay based on scripture alone is very small. A small part of the people that do the mundane tasks that hold our families and this nation together. You say you want to understand this group. Learn more about them. But then unable to contain yourself, you launch into your preconceived and insulting opinion of them. Your question was rhetorical. No need for response.

Concerning the underlined above.
In my short time here I couldn't help but notice what appeared to be guidance or coordination with some of the postings on the left. The focus being too specific (Hannity?). A little too much well timed group harmony. The obedient adoption then abandonment of a boogeyman (or boogiewoman. Sorry Sarah). A nudge here and there. Something unnatural was going on but too vague to say for sure. Then a few days ago I head a statement by the DNC that tied this all together. Vagueness no more. One of those rare 'yeah, that explains everything' moments. The statement from the DNC read like a script and gave method to the madness. Looks like someone else is taking ques from above. Even though I'm personally an atheist I side with the Christian God. You can believe and obey your DNC.
He did say "some people". There are plenty of Christians who don't condemn homosexuals to "eternal torment in hell" and are very accepting.

So, if you side with the Christian god, which Christian God do you mean? There are as many different characterizations of "God" as there are different denominations of "Christians". None of them seem to side much with each other. Just look at the endless Universalists versus the ET arguments in the Christian forum.

Reminds me of this quote: "You know you have created God in your own image, when you find that your God hates the same people that you do."

Last edited by Ceist; 08-10-2009 at 07:51 AM..
 
Old 08-10-2009, 08:20 AM
 
4,529 posts, read 3,047,234 times
Reputation: 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by teejuris View Post
@Nea1 & Axismundi:Yes, I CHOOSE to be heterosexual ; and, yes, I CHOOSE to stay away from the same sex. I could decide right here, right now I want to become a lesbian & date women, and do so. As far as children having homosexual feelings is concerned, that's debatable and questionable, since this eludes to the argument people can be born gay, which the Bible doesn't support and Christians don't believe.Finally, you're right: Christians believe God created everything, even science. I can respect, acknowledge and appreciate science for all its contributions. However, when science contradicts the Word of God, scientific findings and arguments must be disregarded.
The bible has been disproven time and again, from myths to David's use of camels. Modern science, ie psychiatry and related fields, show that a person's sexual preference is established at a much younger age than previously thought. They also show that the mechanisms for homosexuality, bi-sexuality, and heterosexuality are ALL THE SAME.

Unrelated experiments in the perfume industry show portions of gay men's brains, portions closed to learned responses in humans, reacting to pheromines in the same exact manner as that of women. Pherimones have no detectable order by themselves.

The evidence that homosexuality is an inherent trait is simply overwhelming to anyone who doesn't cherry-pick scientific evidence and proof to further their theosophy of bigotry.

One simply cannot cherry-pick science in this manner. Either science is correct, or it is all wrong.

Also, can you actually sit there and honestly say that you would be completly happy and content living with a woman in the same manner that you live with a man? Homosexuals find everything in their relationships that we do. Trust, companionship, understanding, friendship, support, romance, and yes, intimacy.

Homosexuality is not "all about getting yer rocks off".

BTW, got news for ya. IF you are indeed as comfortable living with both sexes, that's not a choice, that means you are bi-sexual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teejuris View Post
Deepcynic: BTW: Christians don't hate; we love, since God is love. Further, God loves the sinner, but He hates the sin. We have every right to love, discuss God and be passionate about our beliefs, just as homosexuals have every right to advocate for their sexuality. Honestly, if you go through these threads, you will see/read it's the homosexual people that are spewing venom and using hateful words/language; not the Christians. It's all about being comfortable in one's skin. If you're comfortable in your skin and secure in who you are, you don't have to resort to name calling and being nasty. I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so I can discuss the Word with holy boldness w/o being belligerent.
Are gays passing laws limiting your Civil Rights?

Are gays claiming you'll go to hell for being Christian?

Are gays being condecending and arrogant, stating "love the religious, hate the religion"?

And if you think Christians haven't been spewing hate, I suggest YOU reread the thread.

Or maybe even pretend to be gay for a month or two, or even a pagan, then you will see pure Christian Hate.
 
Old 08-10-2009, 08:42 AM
 
15,287 posts, read 4,916,643 times
Reputation: 3573
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
.....

Modern science, ie psychiatry and related fields, show that a person's sexual preference is established at a much younger age than previously thought. They also show that the mechanisms for homosexuality, bi-sexuality, and heterosexuality are ALL THE SAME.

....

The evidence that homosexuality is an inherent trait is simply overwhelming to anyone who doesn't cherry-pick scientific evidence and proof to further their theosophy of bigotry.
.....
Great post! I've yet to see ANY scientific peer-reviewed study that concludes sexual orientation is a choice.

If you want more studies...here’s a link to a website that lists most of the published studies up to about 2004. There's quite a few!

Is It a Choice? The Science of Sexual Orientation (http://www.libertyeducationforum.org/IsItaChoiceTheScienceofSexualOrientation.htm - broken link)

And here's some quotes from scientists from just some of the more recent studies in the past 5 years:


Quote:
Mustanski, B. S.; DuPree, M. G.; Nievergelt, C. M.; Bocklandt, S.; Schork, N. J.; Hamer, D. H. “A genomewide scan of male sexual orientation.” Human Genetics 116: 272-278, 2005

Mustanski concluded that: "There's a converging line of evidence between the hormonal studies, the genetic studies, and the neuroanatomical studies. My research has identified candidate genes within these new chromosomal regions that could link together all of these different findings”
Quote:
Swaab DF (2007) Sexual differentiation of the brain and behavior. Best Pract Res Clin Endocrinol Metab 21:431–444.

Current evidence indicates that sexual differentiation of the human brain occurs during fetal and neonatal development and programs our gender identity— our feeling of being male or female and our sexual orientation as hetero-, homo-, or bisexual. This sexual differentiation process is accompanied by many structural and functional brain differences among these groups.
Quote:
(2008) Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.
The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.

The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy, says Ivanka Savic, who conducted the study at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden

Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex - life - 16 June 2008 - New Scientist

Further evidence that genetics has a role in determining sexual orientation in men
http://www.physorg.com/news113677719.html

Sexual Orientation Affects How We Navigate And Recall Lost Objects, According To Study
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070523081208.htm

And there are more and more studies being done....

Last edited by Ceist; 08-10-2009 at 08:57 AM..
 
Old 08-10-2009, 11:23 AM
 
4,529 posts, read 3,047,234 times
Reputation: 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertjohnson View Post
You need to read more. The group you refer to as anti gay based on scripture alone is very small. A small part of the people that do the mundane tasks that hold our families and this nation together. You say you want to understand this group. Learn more about them. But then unable to contain yourself, you launch into your preconceived and insulting opinion of them. Your question was rhetorical. No need for response.
You are incorrect. While this Nation was never founded "for" Christians, and our most basic Laws are meant to keep religious doctrine out of our Laws, we still "enjoy" (aka labor)" under a heavily Christian Culture. Athiests are still brought up under that culture as well, a culture of peers who convince some of them that gays are somehow inherently evil. Attempting to pass off the anti-gay mentality as somehow NOT biblically motivated is a simple smoke screen, meant to keep laws that discriminate against gays from being measured against several Rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertjohnson View Post
Concerning the underlined above.
In my short time here I couldn't help but notice what appeared to be guidance or coordination with some of the postings on the left. The focus being too specific (Hannity?). A little too much well timed group harmony. The obedient adoption then abandonment of a boogeyman (or boogiewoman. Sorry Sarah). A nudge here and there. Something unnatural was going on but too vague to say for sure. Then a few days ago I head a statement by the DNC that tied this all together. Vagueness no more. One of those rare 'yeah, that explains everything' moments. The statement from the DNC read like a script and gave method to the madness. Looks like someone else is taking ques from above. Even though I'm personally an atheist I side with the Christian God. You can believe and obey your DNC.
An Athiest who sides with the Christian God. You do realize what an Athiest is, I would hope.

Also, ever stop to consider that maybe the lefties have a valid point, and you righties are, in fact wrong?

And please, don't bother trying to insult the lefties with toeing their party line, especially when conservatives and/or Republicans have people like Limbaugh and O'Rielly on their side, two bald faced liars of the worst kind.
 
Old 08-10-2009, 11:26 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 1,415,170 times
Reputation: 409
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

We're "anti-gay" for the same reason we're "anti-murder" or "anti-alcoholic". It's immoral. That's the only thing we really need to say about it.
 
Old 08-10-2009, 11:44 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,148 posts, read 2,138,723 times
Reputation: 2368
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

We're "anti-gay" for the same reason we're "anti-murder" or "anti-alcoholic". It's immoral. That's the only thing we really need to say about it.
To me it is comparing apples and oranges. Why? Because the morality issue you bring up against gay lifestyle has to do mostly with religiouis belief, upbringing, cultural difference, or something else. Murder? Taking life maliciously is a universal act against humanity.

Being gay is a behavior that does not affect you at all. Example: When you are having dinner while a gay couple is having fun in the privacy of a home, how does that affect you?
Does it affect your sleep while they are doing the same at the same time?
If it affects you in some form is the fact that you let your own views on the issue as far as I am concerned.

As far as alchoholism, I am with you in the sense of someone drinking and driving putting others safety at risk but if someone wants to get drunk as a skunk without harming anyone, it is his problem. He will pay the price. In that situation it does not affect you at all. Now, if it a family member of yours, it can be harmful but then it is good to approach that individual for his sake and the family's, not condeming as many do because it is immoral.

If that is all you have to say about it, I believe you then stop short. Take action and help them but once they refuse your help for whatever reason, respect their decision. Nothing wrong with offering help to anyone for any reason I believe.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
 
Old 08-10-2009, 11:52 AM
 
4,529 posts, read 3,047,234 times
Reputation: 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

We're "anti-gay" for the same reason we're "anti-murder" or "anti-alcoholic". It's immoral. That's the only thing we really need to say about it.
So who's "asking" you to "be gay"? All that is being asked is that you keep your religion out of our laws, and your mind on your own crotch.

And considering the numbers of Christians who rabidly support the death penalty and are, in fact, alcoholics, you can spare us the fake superiority as well.

Your moral set is silly and unnatural, causing certain sexual hang-ups and psychosis in many people, and suicides as well. Feel free to keep it to yourself.
 
Old 08-10-2009, 11:54 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 1,415,170 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
So who's "asking" you to "be gay"? All that is being asked is that you keep your religion out of our laws, and your mind on your own crotch.

And considering the numbers of Christians who rabidly support the death penalty and are, in fact, alcoholics, you can spare us the fake superiority as well.

Your moral set is silly and unnatural, causing certain sexual hang-ups and psychosis in many people, and suicides as well. Feel free to keep it to yourself.

Oh well. Honestly....I don't much care what you do in the privacy of your home. Just don't ask me to endorse it by special rights.
 
Old 08-10-2009, 11:55 AM
 
42 posts, read 111,184 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

We're "anti-gay" for the same reason we're "anti-murder" or "anti-alcoholic". It's immoral. That's the only thing we really need to say about it.
Really?

I sure hope you don't have any gay children. My family was once as arrogant in our convictions as you are. What changed? Our first hand observation of the destructive power of trying to force people into molds that don't fit.

I have a gay brother. My parents thought as you did. We were raised Catholic....in the 80s. We were a homophobic family. My brother grew up believing he *had* to be heterosexual.....but being an inherently honest person, he could not force himself to lie. So he did the next best thing: he decided he'd be "nothing",he'd date no one, he'd keep to himself. In his teens, he withdrew deeper into his shame. By the time he was in his late teens, he barely spoke. He made no eye contact. In a family of extraverts, he was the sole inhibited, overweight, self loathing introvert. He became NOTHING.

I used to pray for him--all the time. "Please Dear God, make my brother like himself." Little did I know that all the time I was planning proms, dates, and a future filled with love and companionship, he was secretly contemplating the choice between being an inherent liar or a lonely recluse.

When he was 19, he made the same choice that many gay young people make: he decided he would kill himself. He made a phone call to a suicide prevention hotline and the young man who answered changed all of our lives with what he said: "So, you think being dead is better than being gay?".

"So you think being DEAD is better than being GAY?" Can you imagine what got him to that point? Can you imagine having to make a choice between what feels as natural as air or being a liar?

On some level, I must have known what he was thinking because the entire night he was in such deep despair, I was in deep prayer. Around 3 am, I felt peace and heard the words: "If you want your brother to have a friend, BE his friend." I had no idea what it meant.

It took 4 years for the impact of that phone call to reveal itself entirely. As he accepted himself, my brother began to care for himself. He lost weight. He made friends. He shyly began revealing his true self to friends and then family. As he shed his secret, he began to shed his dark persona. The handsome, successful, peaceful and happy man he is today would surprise anyone who knew him during that dark period. Today, he is happy and has grown into his true self: a man filled with natural gifts: from artistic talent, to keen intellect to a pure heart. How could God had ever intended for him to be anything other than what he is?

If you think about it, homosexuals are the ONLY people who are openly persecuted for who they love and how they express that love.

Do you understand that?

WHO THEY LOVE
HOW THEY EXPRESS THAT LOVE

I know that a dusty old book is now being used to make people like you feel superior to things you don't understand. And that's fine. For you. But for their sake, I sincerely hope that no person you love is ever forced to experience such self hatred for wanting to express love in a manner that seems unconventional to you.

I don't know the scriptures to the letter but I did suffer through 12 years of Catholic school long enough to know this: the primary teachings of Christianity are filled with examples about the meek being persecuted by the righteous majority. Remember the beatitudes? To me, it is evidently obvious that the move against homosexuals is led by sinners who presume to judge and who would more willingly follow a false God (ie the man-written tomes of the Bible) than their own conscience. For--if you were to ever give it more than a passing thought-you would realize there is nothing more precious than God's creations AS THEY WERE INTENDED. Seeing my brother flourish and observing his productive, light filled life makes that point to me much more than the written game of telephone (visa vis interpretations) that has evolved into the modern bible.
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