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Old 05-14-2009, 03:15 AM
 
2,385 posts, read 4,326,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
Sure you are. You're implying that we're defective in some way due to how we were raised.
Do you see being an atheist as being defective?

If you don't, I really don't understand where you're getting your assertion against me.
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:37 AM
 
2,385 posts, read 4,326,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Violett wrote:

Don't you know that when you make a comment like that that you can expect some unpleasant responses? What it sounds like you're saying is that atheism is the result of a troubled childhood not unlike juveniles who get into trouble and often end up in prison because of their abusive and unloving parents who cause the child to become antisocial. That point of view is based on ignorance because you have obviously taken the stigma of being an atheist in a religious society very seriously and it has led you to the conclusion that atheists are disturbed individuals who have lost their way.
I also came from a very loving and good family and we've always been close to each other. My atheism is nothing more than a desire to think for myself and to question the religious teachings I learned as a child but came to believe they were not based on reality. Actually, the way in which you expressed your thoughts were really not offensive at all and I can sense that this is something that you actually believe so no offense was taken by me but it sounds like you're so locked into the idea of a loving God who takes care of us that you can't comprehend a contrary point of view.
It's just funny in a strange way when people quickly attach meanings to concepts that those concepts did not intend to imply.

I don't care if you're an atheist. I don't care if you make love to men, women, sheep and/or donkeys, I don't care if you start your day by standing in the middle of the street and screaming, I don't care if you prefer Macs over PC or vice versa. I really couldn't give an F less what people do, so long as they bring harm to no one.

As I stated, it has been MY experience that the American atheists that *I* have known have come from unhappy families. Some of these families are still intact (read: not divorced), some of these families had a good parent and a bad parent, some of these families look ok from the outside, but when you really start talking to people, they weren't so great.

As a therapist, I have had patients who SWEAR their families are wonderful and perfect in every way, but as we get deeper into therapy, there are some pretty F'ed up messages that are getting transmitted to the kids. No household is perfect just like no parent can be perfect. But, it has been MY experience with people who grew up in households where the neglect was severe (neglect and severity can be quantified in a number of ways), tend to choose atheism than those did not grow up in these households. Sometimes these people are completely oblivious to how bad their home life actually was until we got to really talking about it. So you'll have to forgive me when I say I don't exactly believe people right off the bat when they tell me they've had a great home life until I really get to know them.

I can give you a quick example:
I knew a person who's parental family was intact and looked "normal" from the outside. The patient mentioned that when they went to a fast food restaurant, the mother, father and two brothers sat together, and always made my patient sit alone. The patient didn't think anything of it, it's just "how it always was". As we examined the familial relationship, more evidence began to crop up that her parents didn't really pay her much attention, and expected her to parent herself. After the patient went off to school, her family cut off ties almost completely, for no real reason. The patient doesn't get into trouble, is a straight A student and is in the process of getting her PhD. The parents just have issues, but you wouldn't know it if you met them. They certainly aren't going to tell you how screwed up they are, you'd have no way of knowing unless you really knew them. You might say because my patient is doing so well scholastically that she doesn't really have a problem, except that she does. She is suicidal, suffers from chronic depression, has no sense of self, and has a hard time making friends and attaching to others. Her romantic relationships all end in turmoil. All because her parents didn't pay her any attention while she was growing up, they did not validate her experiences, help her establish a sense of self and give off the impression that she was secure because they could be relied upon. Your parents don't have to beat you or constantly berate you to mess you up. And yes, this person is an atheist.

Other trends I've noticed where people tend to choose atheism had:
1) Parents who didn't really care about a religion either way
2) A parent who was an atheist (no surprise there)
3) Parents who were culturally Jewish where the person growing up in the family wanted to maintain the culture and some of the religious values of Judaism but did not believe that God existed and/or was a supernatural entity.

This is just my experience, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I also don't think being an atheist makes you a screwed up person, I think BLINDLY following ANY ideology is what screws people up.

Last edited by Violett; 05-14-2009 at 03:50 AM..
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:22 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,933,629 times
Reputation: 596
Violett I think you really need to stop being blunt and address the main complaints. Here are mine:

1. How does one know from experience that most atheists in America grew up in unloved homes? You can meet a thousand atheists and it would still not make up 0.001% of estimated atheists in America.

2. People suffering from neglect crave attention. It makes more sense that these people will believe in a deity that loves you unconditionally but who happens to be invisible and not the other way around.

3. Have you asked all those atheists you know why they became atheists? This week alone there have been half a dozen threads or so on why people are atheists or agnostics with posters from all walks of life giving their reasons. Look at the number of people who give "There's no evidence" as their reason, compare it to the number of people who say "My parents never loved me therefore there is no god" and see which one wins out. Seems to me that trying to show a correlation wont prove causation unless the reasons all of them give has to do with their unloving upbringing.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:28 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,933,629 times
Reputation: 596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
It's just funny in a strange way when people quickly attach meanings to concepts that those concepts did not intend to imply.

I don't care if you're an atheist. I don't care if you make love to men, women, sheep and/or donkeys, I don't care if you start your day by standing in the middle of the street and screaming, I don't care if you prefer Macs over PC or vice versa. I really couldn't give an F less what people do, so long as they bring harm to no one.

As I stated, it has been MY experience that the American atheists that *I* have known have come from unhappy families. Some of these families are still intact (read: not divorced), some of these families had a good parent and a bad parent, some of these families look ok from the outside, but when you really start talking to people, they weren't so great.

As a therapist, I have had patients who SWEAR their families are wonderful and perfect in every way, but as we get deeper into therapy, there are some pretty F'ed up messages that are getting transmitted to the kids. No household is perfect just like no parent can be perfect. But, it has been MY experience with people who grew up in households where the neglect was severe (neglect and severity can be quantified in a number of ways), tend to choose atheism than those did not grow up in these households. Sometimes these people are completely oblivious to how bad their home life actually was until we got to really talking about it. So you'll have to forgive me when I say I don't exactly believe people right off the bat when they tell me they've had a great home life until I really get to know them.

I can give you a quick example:
I knew a person who's parental family was intact and looked "normal" from the outside. The patient mentioned that when they went to a fast food restaurant, the mother, father and two brothers sat together, and always made my patient sit alone. The patient didn't think anything of it, it's just "how it always was". As we examined the familial relationship, more evidence began to crop up that her parents didn't really pay her much attention, and expected her to parent herself. After the patient went off to school, her family cut off ties almost completely, for no real reason. The patient doesn't get into trouble, is a straight A student and is in the process of getting her PhD. The parents just have issues, but you wouldn't know it if you met them. They certainly aren't going to tell you how screwed up they are, you'd have no way of knowing unless you really knew them. You might say because my patient is doing so well scholastically that she doesn't really have a problem, except that she does. She is suicidal, suffers from chronic depression, has no sense of self, and has a hard time making friends and attaching to others. Her romantic relationships all end in turmoil. All because her parents didn't pay her any attention while she was growing up, they did not validate her experiences, help her establish a sense of self and give off the impression that she was secure because they could be relied upon. Your parents don't have to beat you or constantly berate you to mess you up. And yes, this person is an atheist.

Other trends I've noticed where people tend to choose atheism had:
1) Parents who didn't really care about a religion either way
2) A parent who was an atheist (no surprise there)
3) Parents who were culturally Jewish where the person growing up in the family wanted to maintain the culture and some of the religious values of Judaism but did not believe that God existed and/or was a supernatural entity.

This is just my experience, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I also don't think being an atheist makes you a screwed up person, I think BLINDLY following ANY ideology is what screws people up.
So is every atheist you know someone who needed therapy?
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:13 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,421 posts, read 6,491,140 times
Reputation: 1775
Sample Bias.

The atheist that had functional childhoods don't come to see you.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:54 AM
 
1,577 posts, read 3,694,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Sample Bias.

The atheist that had functional childhoods don't come to see you.
Awww you threw him for loop! He hadn't thought of that! LOL
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Missouri
661 posts, read 1,182,137 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
I've always wanted to test out what I've found in my own personal experience, that the majority of American atheists grew up in unloving homes. When you've never felt loved or taken care of in a caretaking fashion by a human, it's hard to believe there's some supernatural being in the sky that loves and cares about you. Just a thought, not trying to offend anyone.

Personally, I'm an Taoist.
My experience is the opposite of that. I grew up in a very loving home and was a believer for many years. One of the major reasons I became an unbeliever is BECAUSE there was no response, no feedback, no feeling or experience of love from a heavenly father, nothing anywhere akin to the love that I had experienced from my own father. There was nothing, so I eventually concluded that there was no one up there who cared about me.

I once talked about it with an elder from my church and he said his experience with his father was not a loving one and so he didnt have any expectations about God in that regard either.
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Brussels, Belgium
970 posts, read 1,697,847 times
Reputation: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
Look at the number of people who give "There's no evidence" as their reason, compare it to the number of people who say "My parents never loved me therefore there is no god" and see which one wins out.
To be honest, that means nothing - what atheist would actually say that?

But then again, anecdotal evidence also means nothing so I suggest we just drop the subject until someone support his hypothesis with statistics.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
520 posts, read 894,189 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
Other trends I've noticed where people tend to choose atheism had:
1) Parents who didn't really care about a religion either way
My mother is a parish nurse, leads a conformation class, and occasionly gives sermons at her church. My father leads the youth group, and an adult bible study group. So im pretty sure that they care one way, and not another

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
2) A parent who was an atheist (no surprise there)
Nope, their both full blooded lutherans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
3) Parents who were culturally Jewish where the person growing up in the family wanted to maintain the culture and some of the religious values of Judaism but did not believe that God existed and/or was a supernatural entity.
See #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
This is just my experience, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
Thats fine if this is your experience, but then just make sure that you don't paint all atheists this way. Because as coos has pointed out, the atheists that you have met in real life and here, make up a very small percentage of the American atheist population and the world's atheist population. Keep in mind that your experiences do not neccesarly acurately reflect the way things actually are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
I also don't think being an atheist makes you a screwed up person, I think BLINDLY following ANY ideology is what screws people up.
I agree with this.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:29 AM
 
1,788 posts, read 4,747,748 times
Reputation: 1253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
Do you see being an atheist as being defective?

If you don't, I really don't understand where you're getting your assertion against me.
Oh good grief, don't be deliberately obtuse. You know damned well that atheists don't consider atheism a defect. I very CLEARLY stated that YOU were the one IMPLYING that we're defective in some way due to our supposedly lacking childhoods. I for one see that as a deliberate insult.

Trying to turn that statement around on me and implying that I find myself defective in some way is just plain silly.
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