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I was a former JW a long time ago so I will just say what I was told then. Any JW today will either tell me it changed or not or I am wrong how I remember this concept.
Then you were not a typical JWs but one whose lack of study or perhaps inability to comprehend due to some educational or mental handicap prevented you from graspping the basics. You see, all JWS are provided with scriptural reasons and these scriptures are cross-referenced constantly in the JWS literature. If indeed you were a JWS you would know that.
BTW
I was a book study conductor as a JWs so I know that you are definitely NOT telling it like it is. Or maybe you are projecting your own mindless preaching condition onto other JWS. I suggest that you seriously consider that possibility.
Then you were not a typical JWs but one whose lack of study or perhaps inability to comprehend due to some educational or mental handicap prevented you from graspping the basics. You see, all JWS are provided with scriptural reasons and these scriptures are cross-referenced constantly in the JWS literature. If indeed you were a JWS you would know that.
BTW
I was a book study conductor as a JWs so I know that you are definitely NOT telling it like it is. Or maybe you are projecting your own mindless preaching condition onto other JWS. I suggest that you seriously consider that possibility.
You have not stated what is in error with what he stated. You just go on with an insulting attitude while demonstrating your own immaturity.
I don't know how you could be considered qualified to teach anything based on what you post here and your obvious limited knowledge.
That is not so my friend. Logical coherent scriptural reasons are provided for that belief. Why do you feel you can lie this way? Isn't that satanic?
Actually, Ringweilder is correct with obedience to your man made doctrines as being most important, as can be seen by this excerpt from the Douglas Walsh Trial:
Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?
A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.
Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.
Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
A. That is conceded to be true.
So, when your leaders makes changes in theology, that is the only time you can change what you believe. It is your "new light" excuse.
Did you forget that your revelation book was ammended a few years back? Didn't you get that KM insert? You had to believe and teach what it said, until the revisions were made.
I would be careful as to who you call a liar as you offer no more than assertion to back up your story.
The notion of prophesy from within the JW leadership keeps being mentioned, but for whatever reason no current believing Jehovah's Witness has been willing to explain how that works exactly. Why is that exactly?
The notion of prophesy from within the JW leadership keeps being mentioned, but for whatever reason no current believing Jehovah's Witness has been willing to explain how that works exactly. Why is that exactly?
Prophecy-Prophet is kind of a conundrum for the JW's.
Watchtower 1959 January 15 pp.39-41 Down with the Old—Up with the New!
" Whom has God actually used as his prophet?
14 By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah's witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. ... It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths..."
Watchtower 1976 May 15 p.297 Preaching Christ—Through Envy or Goodwill? "They do not claim infallibility or perfection. Neither are they inspired prophets."
Watchtower 1982 October 1 p.27 Be as Men Who Are Facing Har-Magedon Unafraid
"8 In behalf of such individuals who at heart seek God's rule instead of man's rule, the "prophet" whom Jehovah has raised up has been, not an individual man as in the case of Jeremiah, but a class. The members of this class are, like the prophet-priest Jeremiah, wholly dedicated to Jehovah God through Christ and, by the begettal of Jehovah's holy spirit, they have been made part of "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession."
Awake! 1986 June 8 p.7-9 "Would That All Were Prophets!"
"You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses."
When you spin and spin, you can get kind of dizzy. There are prophets, then there are prophets. They have a long history of spinning the prophet topic.
This is why they cannot succinctly answer your question. What it says in the bible, and how they apply it to themselves are two clearly different things.
I guess you would have to say their prophet ability is a "collective osmosis."
That is not so my friend. Logical coherent scriptural reasons are provided for that belief. Why do you feel you can lie this way? Isn't that satanic?
I too was a JW for nearly 40 years and conducted a book study group and was school overseer and field service overseer for some of that time...so what?
I know they have changed their beliefs on Revelation many times. In fact when they studied the Revelation books last time they had to issue a list of amendments to their book, because it was already out of date. If 'logical, coherent' (borrowed from the Theocratic Ministry School Guidebook, eh?) Scriptures are provided, why do they keep changing the interpretation. They obviously werent that logical were they?
You like to insult and call names, but I notice that was a deflection from answering my questions,
1. If the Great Crowd are stood in the temple, before the throne, how are they not in heaven, and if they are in heaven, then who is on the earth?
2. When virtually everything else in the Revelation is taken as symbolic by the JWs, even the identity of the 144,000, what proves that this number is literal?
From my point of view, a non believer, what might be the difference in the "faithful and discreet slave", the governing body, with a hotline to God, which wrote the bible in the first place or the one who changes it along the way?
I see no difference in the two. If you study the back ground of any and all religions they do this, have done this, and will continue to do this. What makes one different from the other besides what it's followers believe? To me it makes no difference. Could you explain that?
This debate just smells like team spirit to me. Everyone calling themselves the winner of the game before the game has been played. At least with sport teams you have past wins to calculate. Religious teams do not.
Hey Twiggy, I was once a JW, for a long time but am no longer and my comment was meant as sarcasm... Of course all religions think they have the 'truth.' They can all point to Scriptures to back up their claims. That is because the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways...It was written in ancient languages and scholars argue over the meaning of words and phrases to this day.
The tragedy is, religions interpretations have led to suffering, misery and death for thousands who were deemed condemned or sinners in the Scriptures, and also, at the very least, control of millions of humans by the religious leaders who hand down their laws and orders claiming these things were revealed by Holy Spirit.
I too was a JW for nearly 40 years and conducted a book study group and was school overseer and field service overseer for some of that time...so what?
So stop misrepresenting! That's what!
Quote:
You like to insult and call names, but I notice that was a deflection from answering my questions,
I was simply taking your claim to it's two inevitable logical conclusions. Actually-your misrepresentations leave me no choice but to reach either of those two conclusions.
Quote:
1. If the Great Crowd are stood in the temple, before the throne, how are they not in heaven, and if they are in heaven, then who is on the earth?
2. When virtually everything else in the Revelation is taken as symbolic by the JWs, even the identity of the 144,000, what proves that this number is literal?
Good questions! Not salvational questions-but good neverthless. Perhaps a JWS who is present and who feels 100% certain about those scriptures can respond to them.
BTW
I never said I agree with changing biblical interpretations. If something can be understood in two acceptable ways then it's better to admit it or to simply say one doesn't know.
'The only answer they have is that the 'faithful and discreet slave', their Governing Body, who have a hotline to God, who gives them a different interpretation of parts of Revelation every few years, told them this is correct.'
I believe this is the answer you are disputing.But it is perfectly true. If the Governing Body said tomorrow that the 144,000 was a symbolic number and that this was 'new light', because the Great Crowd ARE standing in heaven, nearly every Jehovah's Witness would accept it without blinking an eye, regardless of what Scriptures were used.
As an example, I have personally lived through four different interpretations of the 'generation' prophecy from Matthew 24 and even though they get ever more ludicrous (The last one saying that 'this generation' is actually overlapping generations!) they are all accepted without so much as a murmur.
....That is because the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways....
The Bible can be interpreted in many ways?
You mean mangled in many ways. Fortunately most of those attempts can be easily proven illigitimate by showing the gross inconsistencies they create within the Bible itself. Sure, I can interprete Revelation in many ways, but do those ways clash with what the rest of the Bible tells us? If those ways clash then we know something is wrong-don't we? You see, mangling scripture forces the mangler to mangle those other parts so they can fit with his distortions. In short, interpretations that create such messes should be rejected outright since God is not a God of confusion. Correct?
Last edited by Radrook; 05-28-2011 at 08:28 AM..
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