Is it really true that only 144,000 people are able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? (grace, mythology)

[twiggy]

Originally Posted by Ringwielder

Hey Twiggy, I was once a JW, for a long time but am no longer and my comment was meant as sarcasm... Of course all religions think they have the 'truth.' They can all point to Scriptures to back up their claims. That is because the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways...It was written in ancient languages and scholars argue over the meaning of words and phrases to this day.

The tragedy is, religions interpretations have led to suffering, misery and death for thousands who were deemed condemned or sinners in the Scriptures, and also, at the very least, control of millions of humans by the religious leaders who hand down their laws and orders claiming these things were revealed by Holy Spirit.

Thanks for answering me Ringwielder.

[twiggy]

Originally Posted by Radrook

The Bible can be interpreted in many ways?
You mean mangled in many ways. Fortunately most of those attempts can be easily proven illigitimate by showing the gross inconsistencies they create within the Bible itself. Sure, I can interprete Revelation in many ways, but do those ways clash with what the rest of the Bible tells us? If those ways clash then we know something is wrong-don't we? You see, mangling scripture forces the mangler to mangle those other parts so they can fit with his distortions. In short, interpretations that create such messes should be rejected outright since God is not a God of confusion. Correct?

You might have to go back a lot further than the JW's interpretation then if that is your consensus. I would say the bibles start was done by mangling some story lines. I'm not sure you can really solve that puzzle. Maybe that's a good thing. IDK.
People are the ones who've kept the scriptures alive, not the book itself. I doubt what it means (literally) doesn't hold much clout, it's the interpretations of it over the years which has kept it's readers and that was done by people, on purpose, in the regards to church business and drawing customers. Religion is BIG BUSINESS, it's run just like it. It doesn't govern literally anymore but it might as well for it still holds a lot of influence. Fear is the great seller. It will always work, just watch CNN, it bases its programming on such and is doing just fine.
Once a person can get over the fear of not being cast away they can clearly see the light. It's a hard sell though. I do think you are arguing a mute point seeing how JW's all started in the first place, the issues they've had and how increasingly hard their product is to sell.

[Radrook]

You might have to go back a lot further than the JW's interpretation then if that is your consensus. I would say the bibles start was done by mangling some story lines.

I agree! In fact, the NT mentions it and calls it the rebellion or apostasy.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs....

2 Tim. 4: 3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Acts 20: 29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Tim. 4: 1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith. giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

I'm not sure you can really solve that puzzle. Maybe that's a good thing. IDK.

What puzzle?

People are the ones who've kept the scriptures alive, not the book itself.

Well, the apostasy has indeed spread just as the Apostle Paul foretold. I don't think that misinforming people qualifies as keeping scriptures alive though.

I doubt what it means (literally) doesn't hold much clout,

Some parts are literal others use metaphor and simile, parables, and other rhetorical devices as all literature does. Of course you are entitled to your negative opinion about it's message based on your perceived meaning. Everyone is of course. We just have to be careful that our opinions aren't based on our imagination.

it's the interpretations of it over the years which has kept it's readers and that was done by people, on purpose, in the regards to church business and drawing customers. Religion is BIG BUSINESS, it's run just like it. It doesn't govern literally anymore but it might as well for it still holds a lot of influence.

Of course! The Church had much to gain from keeping people terrified of the hereafter. In fact, many left their property to the church in order to avoid the horrors of hell and the clergy were making a profit hand over fist.

Fear is the great seller. It will always work, just watch CNN, it bases its programming on such and is doing just fine.

True! During the apostasy the Church held multitudes in fear of being tortured alive forever. In order to illustrate just how horrible that could be, it ripped out tongues, gauged out eyes, skinned people alive and then roasted them in the public square all in the name of Jesus.

Once a person can get over the fear of not being cast away they can clearly see the light. It's a hard sell though.

That depends on what we define as light. Some say atheism is light. Others say agnosticism is light. Still others say Satanism is light.

Matt 6:23
....but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness,....

I do think you are arguing a mute point seeing how JW's all started in the first place,

What point is it that you think I'm arguing?

....the issues they've had and how increasingly hard their product is to sell

True! I never denied that there have been issues. All I have said is that if we are to speak about JWS we should be accurate and not mislead via sarcasms.

[elamigo]

Originally Posted by Radrook

Then you were not a typical JWs but one whose lack of study or perhaps inability to comprehend due to some educational or mental handicap prevented you from graspping the basics. You see, all JWS are provided with scriptural reasons and these scriptures are cross-referenced constantly in the JWS literature. If indeed you were a JWS you would know that.

BTW
I was a book study conductor as a JWs so I know that you are definitely NOT telling it like it is. Or maybe you are projecting your own mindless preaching condition onto other JWS. I suggest that you seriously consider that possibility.

Well, by your reply you did not apply the basic Christian personality. I simply described what I learned as a JW way back then. I did not try to prove whether their teaching were correct or incorrect according to the Bible. With your reply you joined those many of us do not like when they respond the way you do because you did not like what we write.

Did I put them in a negative way in my message? If so, tell me where.

Also, tell me where was I wrong as far as the 144,000 number as I explained it?

Do JWs believe the Paradise will be restored?

I was a book study conductor also, I gave speeches on Sundays before going over an article on the Watchtower the next hour. I actually visited the Watchtower Headquarters in 1969 when I went to an assembly at Yankee Stadium. I saw Mr. Knorr give a speech to the Spanish speaking section. Heck, I helped build a new Kingdom Hall because at that time I was a licenced electrician.

It amazes me that people that claim to be Christians turn around and become jerks questioning by stating "if you endeed were JWs". I have no need to lie on the subject. I gain nothing.

Again, I did not write the message to convert, to refute, or to prove thus did not see the need to quote verses in the Bible. I just stated how they believe in the point discussed, was I correct? If not show me why not, not be a jerk. I am surprised a JW reacted that way. You simply proved what others have said about them in negative way. It is sad because I respect them a lot still to this day. Look under my name and see what I have written about them in other threads and in this one, take care.

[Radrook]

Well, by your reply you did not apply the basic Christian personality. I simply described what I learned as a JW way back then. I did not try to prove whether their teaching were correct or incorrect according to the Bible. With your reply you joined those many of us do not like when they respond the way you do because you did not like what we write.

Well, if I came accross that way then it's a flaw that needs to be corrected. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Also, if I say something that isn't true about them feel free to correct me as well.

Did I put them in a negative way in my message? If so, tell me where.

By saying that the literature is their Bible. That's not they way JWs perceive their literature., They perceive it as an aid to Bible understanding. Saying that they view their literature that way only adds to the suspicion that they are a cult.

Also, tell me where was I wrong as far as the 144,000 number as I explained it?

I don't recall having taken issue with anything you said about the 144000. If so please show me.

I was a book study conductor also, I gave speeches on Sundays before going over an article on the Watchtower the next hour. I actually visited the Watchtower Headquarters in 1969 when I went to an assembly at Yankee Stadium. I saw Mr. Knorr give a speech to the Spanish speaking section. Heck, I helped build a new Kingdom Hall because at that time I was a licenced electrician. It amazes me that people that claim to be Christians turn around and become jerks questioning by stating "if you indeed were JWs".

I don't doubt that you were and that you did.

I have no need to lie on the subject. I gain nothing.

Good!

....I am surprised a JW reacted that way.

I identify myself as Christian.

...., take care.

Same

[elamigo]

Originally Posted by Radrook

Well, if I came accross that way then it's a flaw that needs to be corrected. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Also, if I say something that isn't true about them feel free to correct me as well.




By saying that the literature is their Bible.
How does this comment apply to me? Explain because I do not recall saying anything like that.
That's not they way JWs perceive their literature., They perceive it as an aid to Bible understanding.
Again, what does that have to do with my messages?
Saying that they view their literature that way only adds to the suspicion that they are a cult.
Again, what does that have to do with my messages? Did I say anything liket that?



I don't recall having taken issue with anything you said about the 144000. If so please show me.
When I wrote the message and you replied like a jerk I mentioned their views about the 144,000. Your reply simply attacked me without either proving me right or wrong on my description of their views.





I don't doubt that you were and that you did.
Maybe not now but as I said you questioned it with your "if you indeed were JWs" comment which was uncalled for.


Good!
It is good but there was no need for me to say that if you did not question me.




I identify myself as Christian.
Identify anything you want but you did not show the Christian personality by the arrogant way you replied and was also addressed by another reader. Why not concentrate more on the Christian personality and the fruits of the spirits than on the interpretation of the Bible, the pharisees were a lot like that quoting to Jesus things like that. He often replied on the actions of the people.




Same

So again, was I correct or incorrect on points I addressed but you ignored? Take care.

[Radrook]

Elamigo posted: So again, was I correct or incorrect on points I addressed but you ignored? Take care.

About JWs believing that only 144,000 go to heaven? You are correct. That is what they believe. Do I believe it? Let's just say that I prefer to remain in the wait-and-see mode. In short I'm comfortable with either explanation and since it's not a salvational issue and doesn't defame God's character in any way as the hellfire-eternal-torment idea does, I prefer not to worry about it.

[elamigo]

Originally Posted by Radrook

About JWs believing that only 144,000 go to heaven? You are correct. That is what they believe. Do I believe it? Let's just say that I prefer to remain in the wait-and-see mode. In short I'm comfortable with either explanation and since it's not a salvational issue and doesn't defame God's character in any way as the hellfire-eternal-torment idea does, I prefer not to worry about it.

How about that they believe that Paradise will be restored after Armagedon?

Do you agree with them not accepting the Trinity? Take care.

[Radrook]

Elamigo Posted:
How about that they believe that Paradise will be restored after Armagedon?

Well, it has to be after armageddon because the removal of the nations who oppose God's rule has to come first and that's part of Armageddon.

Do you agree with them not accepting the Trinity?

Yes! However, if God were a Trinity it would make absolutely no difference in terms of salvation since the ransom sacrifice would still be available for forgiveness of sin.

Take care.

Same!

[London Guy]

Originally Posted by Radrook

About JWs believing that only 144,000 go to heaven? You are correct.

You'd be a pissed off if you were number 144,001 wouldn't you!

Who makes up this rubbish anyhow?