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Old 05-29-2009, 12:00 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,078,859 times
Reputation: 2623

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Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I don't recall using the words "all" or "they all". Like I said, I had an experience. I never said it was the norm.
You summed up your experiences with a strongly implied generalization: "So, as funny as it sounds, the Asian Buddhist temples were more welcoming of a black man then a White Church." You don't have to say "all" or "they all" to make it clear that you are comparing Asian Buddhist temples to a white Christian Church to make a point that the white Christian church was not welcoming. That begs the question "What's the point?" Considering that the title of this thread is "Why are so few churches ethnically diverse?" and not "Please share your personal experiences with various religious groups", it would follow that you are telling this story to make a point that a white Church was less "good" than buddhists. Your post was a generalization or else it was not relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I am a Christian. A Gnostic Christian (i.e., about 80% of the Christians I meet who I say that to have this "I wanna kill you" look in their eyes) but still a Christian none the less. You seem to be generalizing that everyone who says something against Christian churches is a none Christian.
Gnosticism is different from Christianity; it actually predates Christianity as well as coopts teachings and knowledge from Christianity (as well as other religions). So, if you want to call yourself a Gnostic Christian, that's certainly your right, but don't expect other Christians to accept that there is truly such a thing. Nobody should look at you with an "I wanna kill you" look, but I have a hard time believing your 80% estimate considering the other generalizations you've made; I honestly think you simply took another opportunity to take yet another shot at Christians/Christianity.

And no, I'm not "generalizing that everyone who says something against Christian churches is a non-Christian"; I myself have said things against Christian churches and I am a Christian myself. There are always problems in Christian churches and I've talked about them, there's nothing wrong with that. At the same time, I am careful not to make generalizations and paint all churches with the same broad brushstroke.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:12 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,240,006 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
Is your narrow view a product of your geographic location?
My "narrow view" is focused. Your's is just narrow.


First, my location has nothing to do with it, I've only lived in Palau a few years. Unless you mean my location within the U.S. when I lived there. In that case, yes I was talking about churches in the U.S. I don't know about Churches in other countries.


My "focused" view is a product of having read a lot about the civil rights movement in the USs, and a little about the fight to integrate churches.

If you ever decide to read anything that's not the bible, you should look into it. It's fascinating.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:17 AM
 
6,107 posts, read 7,949,971 times
Reputation: 3336
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
You summed up your experiences with a strongly implied generalization: "So, as funny as it sounds, the Asian Buddhist temples were more welcoming of a black man then a White Church." You don't have to say "all" or "they all" to make it clear that you are comparing Asian Buddhist temples to a white Christian Church to make a point that the white Christian church was not welcoming. That begs the question "What's the point?" Considering that the title of this thread is "Why are so few churches ethnically diverse?" and not "Please share your personal experiences with various religious groups", it would follow that you are telling this story to make a point that a white Church was less "good" than buddhists. Your post was a generalization or else it was not relevant.
I was just stating my observations on the said phenomenon of race and religion, that's all. I currently attend a church that is mostly white, with some Asian and a couple of blacks as well. Which brings me to...

Quote:
Gnosticism is different from Christianity; it actually predates Christianity as well as coopts teachings and knowledge from Christianity (as well as other religions). So, if you want to call yourself a Gnostic Christian, that's certainly your right, but don't expect other Christians to accept that there is truly such a thing.
So biblical scholar Elaine Pagels has it all wrong? and the Cathars...they never existed? Catharism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and Gnostic Churches today, including the one I attend, do not exist? The North American College of Gnostic Bishops
Apostolic Johannite Church :: An Esoteric Gnostic Christian Communion with Valid Apostolic Succession (http://www.johannite.org/message.html - broken link)
Alexandrian Gnostic Church (http://alexandriangnostic.blogspot.com/ - broken link)

I believe that Jesus Christ came to us from GOD as the son of GOD to set men free. Hence, I am a Christian. No one has to accept that but GOD.

Quote:
Nobody should look at you with an "I wanna kill you" look, but I have a hard time believing your 80% estimate considering the other generalizations you've made; I honestly think you simply took another opportunity to take yet another shot at Christians/Christianity.
Also...a dog, who has lived in captivity for ages will still chase and attack a rabbit out of instinct, even if they never saw a rabbit before. Nicenes are the same way: even if they have never seen a Gnostic before in their lives, meeting one will awaken something deep inside them and suddenly you see the same genocidal fire in their eyes that the Cathars saw before being massacred. Fortunately, their day is over and they are nothing more then a paper-tiger, and I praise Jesus Christ for that.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:23 AM
 
Location: southern california
53,432 posts, read 68,333,696 times
Reputation: 45012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
huckeberry wrote:

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say but I sense quite a bit of sarcism and I don't think you're really trying to contribute anything.
i agree a very abstract and difficult post to understand. but i dont think off topic at all. i think there is much work to be done in the churches to make them diversity friendly, as are on the forums.
signed
a non white
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:24 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,078,859 times
Reputation: 2623
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Again, I am not generalizing, only stating what I have seen. Also...there is a head of the all churches, most of whom are the same race as the membership...there is only one Pope, and one College of Cardinals. They are black, white, Asian, Latino etc. Hence, the Catholic Church is certaintly multi-racial.
Again, you are generalizing. You said, "there is one kind of church that I have seen over and over again be ethnically diverse: Catholic Churches. Blacks from the Caribbean and Aftrica, Koreans, Filipanoes, Mexicans, Irish, Italian, etc, all under one roof. I remember when I was a kid and used to go there with my parents, there were all kinds of people there. You can call the Catholic church a lot of names, but "Segregated" is not one of them."

Well, like many other Christian denomination, I can find Catholic Churches that are very ethnically mixed and many other ones that are very ethnically segregated. It doesn't matter that the Pope and cardinals are of different ethnicities; the same can be said of the leadership of many Protestant denominations as well.

Furthermore, you have in the Catholic Church the "Uniate" or "Eastern Rite" churches which are completely segregated. My friend is an Italian whose wife half Ukrainian. Recently, they went to a Ukrainian Catholic church for a funeral for one of her relatives. He felt completely out of place, and he was the only non-Ukrainian there. People gave him looks - not "I wanna kill you" looks but "what is that Italian guy doing here?" looks. Try going to a Lebanese Maronite Church - you won't find anyone there but Lebanese, and the service is in Arabic (and Syriac and Aramaic).

I have no problem with your experiences being what they are, but you use your particular experiences to make statements about the Catholic church not being segregated when in fact they DO segregate. And, it's not a big deal that they do (or any other church does). It's not always about "I wanna kill you". There are sometimes practical reasons for it.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:32 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,078,859 times
Reputation: 2623
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
And why is that. I have been thinking about this question for a long time and think I know the answer, but I am a little timid to say what I think it is. So before I do the post, I just want you to know that I am saying what I think and I have no intention of defending what I think to anybody. I have come to this conclusion by observation only.

Some diverse groups are insecure and look for a place where they will be welcome, but they are causing themselves problems by everybody swamping to the same place. Some posters on here ask for areas where _________or ________or __________are welcome. This is America and everybody should be welcome everywhere, so why go looking for a place that has other people just like you thus causing segregation. Come out of your little groups and join the rest of the United States by being just another American instead of being _________American. When you start thinking of yourselves as American others will too.
So if I understand you correctly, all Americans should shed their ethnic culture, history, language, etc. and embrace only all things American? Are you trying to send a message to hispanics that they are "unAmerican" for speaking Spanish? Or to Italian-Americans who speak Italian, or Chinese-Americans who speak Chinese, etc. that they are "unAmerican"???

Sometimes people have close ties to their ethnic roots and pride in their ethnic roots; at the same time, these people can be proud Americans.

I hate this notion that people can't be proud, patriotic Americans unless they completely abandon their ethnicity and pretend there is no such thing as ethnic diversity in our nation. The way some people talk, you would think we all need to act like we are all descendants of native Americans (albeit ones that spoke English ). People shouldn't forget that we are a nation made up of different ethnicities, and I am grateful for the people of each ethnicity who keeps his or her ethnic culture alive in our nation. There's nothing more American than that, to me.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:46 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,078,859 times
Reputation: 2623
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I was just stating my observations on the said phenomenon of race and religion, that's all. I currently attend a church that is mostly white, with some Asian and a couple of blacks as well. Which brings me to...
You were not "just stating" your observations; you stated your observations and both implied and made generalizations based on your observations (which was why you stated your observations in the first place).

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
So biblical scholar Elaine Pagels has it all wrong? and the Cathars...they never existed? Catharism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't know who Pagels is, nor what she has said, so I can't say whether she "has it all wrong" or not. As for the Cathars, they existed, and they are heretical according to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
and Gnostic Churches today, including the one I attend, do not exist? The North American College of Gnostic Bishops
Apostolic Johannite Church :: An Esoteric Gnostic Christian Communion with Valid Apostolic Succession (http://www.johannite.org/message.html - broken link)
Alexandrian Gnostic Church (http://alexandriangnostic.blogspot.com/ - broken link)
They exist but they are not truly Christian; they are heretical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I believe that Jesus Christ came to us from GOD as the son of GOD to set men free. Hence, I am a Christian. No one has to accept that but GOD.
Muslims have a similar belief in Jesus Christ and consider themselves to be Christians (in fact, "true Christians" as opposed to other Christians who cannot be true Christians since they are not also muslim). Of course, Muslims are not Christians and are not recognized as Christians by Christians or by anyone else. Mormons do the same thing; they call themselves "Christians" but few others recognize them as actual Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Also...a dog, who has lived in captivity for ages will still chase and attack a rabbit out of instinct, even if they never saw a rabbit before. Nicenes are the same way: even if they have never seen a Gnostic before in their lives, meeting one will awaken something deep inside them and suddenly you see the same genocidal fire in their eyes that the Cathars saw before being massacred. Fortunately, their day is over and they are nothing more then a paper-tiger, and I praise Jesus Christ for that.
That has to be the most ignorant thing you've said yet. Is such ignorance a hallmark of Gnositicism these days?
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:35 AM
 
6,107 posts, read 7,949,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
I don't know who Pagels is, nor what she has said, so I can't say whether she "has it all wrong" or not. As for the Cathars, they existed, and they are heretical according to Christianity.
Elaine Pagels is the for most expert on historic Gnosticism and a New Testament scholar and author of "The Gnostic Gospels", the first book to look at Gnosticism as anything but a bunch of bastards. Also, the Cathars were "heretics" as much as the Protestants were. Are you implying that they deserved to be massacred?

You know, during the Albigensian Crusade, the Cathars did not wish to fight. Those "heretics" were strict pacifist who only fought in self defense. When the crusaders got to a town filled with both Cathars and Catholics (the Cathars allowed the Catholics religious freedom, btw) the Crusader commander gave an order that is remembered to this day: "Kill them all! god will know his own!" After they were rounded up and massacred and burned alive, what did the Cathars do? They sang hymms and prayed for forgiveness for those who were killing them.

So, who was more Christian, the Crusaders or the "heretic" Cathars?

Quote:
They exist but they are not truly Christian; they are heretical.
The Catholics could say that about the Protestants, the Jehovah's Witness about the Protestants, the Adventist about the Jehovah's, the Amish about the Mormons, etc etc etc...

Quote:
Muslims have a similar belief in Jesus Christ and consider themselves to be Christians (in fact, "true Christians" as opposed to other Christians who cannot be true Christians since they are not also muslim). Of course, Muslims are not Christians and are not recognized as Christians by Christians or by anyone else. Mormons do the same thing; they call themselves "Christians" but few others recognize them as actual Christians.
The difference between the Muslims and the Gnostics is that we feel that Christ was the son of GOD, and was GOD made flesh.

Quote:
That has to be the most ignorant thing you've said yet. Is such ignorance a hallmark of Gnositicism these days?
Ignorance means "lack of knowledge", and trust me, I have no lack of knowledge in dealing with Nicenes. If I said I was a Wiccan they would just preach...I say I'm Gnostic, and they SCREAM.
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Old 05-29-2009, 08:56 AM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
20,164 posts, read 19,507,576 times
Reputation: 22100
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
So if I understand you correctly, all Americans should shed their ethnic culture, history, language, etc. and embrace only all things American? Are you trying to send a message to hispanics that they are "unAmerican" for speaking Spanish? Or to Italian-Americans who speak Italian, or Chinese-Americans who speak Chinese, etc. that they are "unAmerican"???

Sometimes people have close ties to their ethnic roots and pride in their ethnic roots; at the same time, these people can be proud Americans.

I hate this notion that people can't be proud, patriotic Americans unless they completely abandon their ethnicity and pretend there is no such thing as ethnic diversity in our nation. The way some people talk, you would think we all need to act like we are all descendants of native Americans (albeit ones that spoke English ). People shouldn't forget that we are a nation made up of different ethnicities, and I am grateful for the people of each ethnicity who keeps his or her ethnic culture alive in our nation. There's nothing more American than that, to me.
And I disagree with you. I think that if you want a strong country the loyalty to the other groups have to go. So many people seem to hate the country they live in now. I am a little tired of it. My ancestors are Native American, English, German and who know what else, but I am an all American girl. I didn't even know about the different ancestors until a teacher gave the assignment to find who our ancestors were. It is really not necessary to know that, because I am just me. And yes, if you are going to live in American, you should speak English because the people who founded this country did.
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:47 PM
 
943 posts, read 2,580,912 times
Reputation: 683
I do not like the term _____ American. We need to have more of a melting pot and stop all this multiculturalism junk. In churches and in the community.
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