Convincing Evidence Against God (Muslims, believe, belief, Christ)
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Do not you see how dangerous this way of thinking can be?
I guess any way of thinking can take a dangerous turn, if allowed. But I don't see anything inherently dangerous in being open to the possibility that this physical universe of ours may not be the only realm of existence. I'm not afraid of thinking differently. I don't think we should be frightened of someone who thinks differently. If someone considers other possible realms of existence, why should that frighten me?
There is no natural process that can create a universe out of nothing.
And you know this how? Science is miles away from answering any question about the origin of the universe (if it had one). The best we can say at this point is "we don't know" (which is very different from "god did it").
I guess any way of thinking can take a dangerous turn, if allowed. But I don't see anything inherently dangerous in being open to the possibility that this physical universe of ours may not be the only realm of existence. I'm not afraid of thinking differently. I don't think we should be frightened of someone who thinks differently. If someone considers other possible realms of existence, why should that frighten me?
When I said dangerous I was speaking of the people that believe that one can be possessed by demons...Your theories about the universe and alternate realities are interesting, but harmless.
Eeenie-meenee, minee-moh, which God shall I pick, oh no, oh no....
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Joe White
Then the question would be 'how did he come to be?'
The question of how the universe (and those living in it) came to be would still be inexplicable by any natural process.
There is no natural process that can create a universe out of nothing.
Such a process is , by definition, supernatural.
Our (current and temporary) lack of complete understanding of all of astro-physic's secrets hinges, in all likelihood, on some specific bit of sub-atomic or string or reverse-transfibrulastic ion collapse theory.
Then there's that little Christian response: "Well then, so you have some new "Special Theory", but what existed before that, smarty?"
This position of purposeful intellectual retreat is typical of all religions, from Christianity to the Apache gods, the Mayan gods, any god. But it's hardly a good reason. Imagine if I were to have produced, say, a microwave oven in the little town of Bethlehem about 2009 years ago, heated up a nice "cuppa" for John and Mary, and then beamed, say, my pocket laser pointer, green for best effect I'd say, into the misty skies that night?
Could I have explained lasers (coherent light waves) to them? Or cavity-focused microwave radiation heating molecules of water? Frankly, even "molecules" would stump them, surely. Does that make me a messenger of God.
It would seem that a persistent sticking point for Christians is that they require immediate answers to any and all questions, and there's only going to EVER be one solution to that silly need; a godly one.
No matter what we curious humans discover, it will never satisfy all possible questions, and yet, in spite of religion, we have made spectacular advancements in our understanding of the universe and our place in it.
Joe, you assume that because we cannot, for now, conceive of where a unvierse came from when there was (presumably...) nothing before, that there's no other possible explanation, and that "science" is just stumbling around.
"There is no natural process that can create a universe out of nothing.
Such a process is , by definition, supernatural. "
No, I'd say, rather, that it's just beyond our comprehension for now, as my VCR's electronic theory is well beyond my cat's abilitiy to fathom. Nontheless, there it sits. And it's not, as you say, supernatural.
And of course, there's always an awkward silence in the room when someone turns this question around on the Christian and says, "Well then who created God if things can't just pre-exist ad infinitum?"
You then go on to sort of contradict you own greater theory of Universal Beginnings when you say that there may be alternate universes, or one concludes, realities, or even greater understandings.
Apparently the aliens who visit this planet from time to time, for example, have reached some understandings of those higher functions and mysteries, and eventually we will as well. Just give us time, man!
Meantime, what's the value in cementing oneself into a set place and time, never to look any further? Does it really make Christians feel that safe, to be stuck in blissful gnorance?
I found an interesting site this morning that listed old Christian superstitions from the past few thousand years. Things that, if you didn't believe, would get you stoned, flogged, or crucified. At the time, the Church and its always ready-and-willing band of acolytes, were available, night of day, to drag good but innocent folk into the streets to dish out an appropriate disciplinary action. In this day and age, thank the gods we're protected from such actions, but sadly, not necessarily from such thinking.
Then the question would be 'how did he come to be?'
The question of how the universe (and those living in it) came to be would still be inexplicable by any natural process.
There is no natural process that can create a universe out of nothing.
Such a process is , by definition, supernatural.
This is false. The fact that you don't currently know the answer to something doesn't automatically mean god is the answer. Saying 'god did it' is merely masking ones ignorance since there's no empirically verifiable evidence that proves god is the answer. People have been using supernatural explanations to explain away their ignorance of how the world works for thousands of years, although all of those explanations have been proved to be pseudo explanations. For example, people used to think Poseidon was in control of the sea and Ra in control of the sun. Now people understand that those things are natural phenomena, rather than things which require divine intervention. Similarly, the only reason 'god' is used to explain the origin of the universe is because people are ignorant of how it started, but they need an explanation for it, even if that explanation is unsatisfactory and unsubstantiated by evidence. Using a supernatural explanation to explain the unknown, doesn't answer the unknown, it just covers up the fact that the unknown is unknown.
how Dare You ask THAT question, when we KNOW the answer already!
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier
This is false. The fact that you don't currently know the answer to something doesn't automatically mean god is the answer. Saying 'god did it' is merely masking ones ignorance since there's no empirically verifiable evidence that proves god is the answer.
(snip)
Using a supernatural explanation to explain the unknown, doesn't answer the unknown, it just covers up the fact that the unknown is unknown.
Sadly, AgSol, I don't think you'll convince him. I mean, this leaves far too much stuff unknown! And of course that makes the congregation all squirmy in their seats.
Better a silly answer than a good but as-yet unanswered question, huh?
(You know, back in the bad old days, there were the exploratory and inquisitive types, like Magellan and Columbus and Darwin, who happily took off with a good common-sense head on their shoulders, and then there were those who cowered back at home, staying inside (as I heard of with today's solar event) whenever there was an eclipse or lightning or an earthquake or a volcanao, all fearful and prayerful, and sacrificing a chicken or the local virgin...).
There are, apparently, two basic types of minds on this planet.
Why would someone who is content that there is no God want to come to the Rel.\Phil. forum and denounce God, when they can hang out with their pals and discuss in the atheist forum,you are not going to convince a Christian that there is no God
Why would someone who is content that there is no God want to come to the Rel.\Phil. forum and denounce God, when they can hang out with their pals and discuss in the atheist forum,you are not going to convince a Christian that there is no God
Hint: it is a philosophy forum. That is what religion is a part of, a philosophy to live by.
Why would someone who is content that there is no God want to come to the Rel.\Phil. forum and denounce God, when they can hang out with their pals and discuss in the atheist forum,you are not going to convince a Christian that there is no God
This is the general religion/philosophy forum, not the Christians Only forum. This could also be turned around. Look at the all of the christians that have an incessant need to proselytize their beliefs in the Atheist/agnostic forum. You're not going to convince any atheist that there is a god.
Why would someone who is content that there is no God want to come to the Rel.\Phil. forum and denounce God, when they can hang out with their pals and discuss in the atheist forum,you are not going to convince a Christian that there is no God
Not true. I have convinced several and I will continue to spread the truth.
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