Are Christians embarassed by the Old Testament? (belief, Jesus, about)
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It was written by ancient people for their time and place. History and Judaism has changed and how we view the writings has changed too.
Now I will say that my understanding will not be the same as other Jews.
Exactly right!
There's actually quite a bit of genuine history included within Scripture. It's often a question of picking through stories told for their morals as well as embellishments. As to Numbers 31, the idea of a war carried out in revenge isn't unusual; it obviously hasn't become any less unusual in all the years since that account was written.
There's actually quite a bit of genuine history included within Scripture. It's often a question of picking through stories told for their morals as well as embellishments. As to Numbers 31, the idea of a war carried out in revenge isn't unusual; it obviously hasn't become any less unusual in all the years since that account was written.
Very true. Where it gets problematic is when Christians claim that their loving and merciful god, who can't seem to hurt a fly in the New Testament, is the same god of the Old Testament who SUPPOSEDLY "inspired" Moses to carry out the bright idea meaning, he had some secret, divine, GOOD purpose being doing so. If you remove "god" out of the equation, you strip it down to plain old human behavior of greed and vengeance and the war(s) that generally spring from such things.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 03-07-2011 at 06:37 PM..
Where it gets problematic is when Christians claim that their loving and merciful god, who can't seem to hurt a fly in the New Testament, is the same god of the Old Testament who SUPPOSEDLY "inspired" Moses to carry out the bright idea meaning, he had some secret, divine, GOOD purpose being doing so. If you remove "god" out of the equation, you strip it down to plain old human behavior of greed and vengeance and the war(s) that generally spring from such things.
That is EXACTLY RIGHT, Insane.
Telling a story of the Jews massacering a bunch of people is one thing. That has happened many times in human history.
However, when they start claiming their god wanted them to kill a bunch of male babies and rape the young female virgins, it bothers me.
I simply do not respect anyone who thinks the first sentence in chapter 31 of the Book of Numbers is true and who choses to worship that kind of god.
Telling a story of the Jews massacering a bunch of people is one thing. That has happened many times in human history.
However, when they start claiming their god wanted them to kill a bunch of male babies and rape the young female virgins, it bothers me.
I simply do not respect anyone who thinks the first sentence in chapter 31 of the Book of Numbers is true and who choses to worship that kind of god.
The lord SAID to Moses...
You're not buying that, huh Hiker?
There are Christians who will tell you Moses wrote the book of Numbers too, yet if it was him, he was sure pulling a "June" on his readers by ALWAYS referring to himself in the third person when it is clear as day someone else is actually telling the story. Apparently this person was around to hear god talking to Moses. lol
Insane, I can respect people who believe in a god and who believe their god talked to Moses.
However, I do not respect them if they believe their god told Moses to "Take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites".
That quote is from New American Standard Bible.
Well, I can respect the people but I CAN'T respect the idea that some voice spoke to Moses because you will eventually hear such people also claim such voices speaks to them too. For most it would be harmless fantasy, but every now and again, you will have someone claiming god/the devil told them to kill some "demon-possessed" child.
...I do not respect them if they believe their god told Moses to "Take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites".
That quote is from New American Standard Bible.
Well, there's your problem in a nutshell. How about the same quote from the Jewish Publication Society edition of Scripture (which is about the closest thing to a translation of the original Aramaic as you're going to find)...
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Avenge the sons of Israel of the Midianites."
Better? Once again, a war in retribution. It wasn't anything out of the ordinary 4,000 years ago, and it isn't uncommon even today.
Well, there's your problem in a nutshell. How about the same quote from the Jewish Publication Society edition of Scripture (which is about the closest thing to a translation of the original Aramaic as you're going to find)...
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Avenge the sons of Israel of the Midianites."
Better? Once again, a war in retribution. It wasn't anything out of the ordinary 4,000 years ago, and it isn't uncommon even today.
Better? Nope. To me it sounds the same as the translation I quoted.
I agree that wars of retribution have always occurred, but, as I said, I do not respect people who worship a god who they believe told them to commit such a war and kill the young male babies and rape the virgin females, as described in Numbers 31.
Of course they are. That's why they keep trying change what it says or claim that "It doesn't count any more".
They use it to prove their beliefs of Jesus as Messiah. They have cherry picked their way through it.
They need to discount it not because of what it says but because they see themselves as the new covenant. In order to see yourself as the new covenant you need to destroy the old one.
the dilemma is that on the one hand you need it for your proof, but you abhor it because it speaks to the Jews and they are a different religion and seen as lost by many Christians.
The early Christian church and all though history have taken that belief to unbelievable violence directed against the Jewish people.
Even now the pope has offered up another apology to the Jewish people and we have been absolved of being responsible for the death of Jesus....
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