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No I stand on the Word of God and God said He will provide a way to escape temptation 1 Corth 10:13.
Sin is an attempt to find peace by escaping reality.
Reality?
That very laughable coming from someone who places so much trust and belief in a book that claims there is enough water on this flat planet to completely inundate the surface, so some 600 years old guy can build a wooden ship large enough to hold some ten million birds, fish, animals, insects (and Dinsosaurs for you young earthers), who all just happened to live within walking distance, plus their food for many years, so that your loving god could drown everything else, from plants to kids to kittens becasue some people pissed him off.
And all the while the Universe swings lazily around the earth.
While there are certainly "militant" and "fundamentalist" Athiests (every group has them,a fter all), Athiests aren't trying to shove their non-believe down our thoats by making their lack-of-religion into US Law.
I respectfully disagree, AM. It seems to me (a humble middle-of-the-roader) that there is too much yelling on BOTH sides about allowing or forbidding prayers, including the word "god", etc.
Tolerance is lacking on both sides. (However, since Christians claim the "high road", I find myself expecting a lot more from them than they seem to be able to give.)
I respectfully disagree, AM. It seems to me (a humble middle-of-the-roader) that there is too much yelling on BOTH sides about allowing or forbidding prayers, including the word "god", etc.
Tolerance is lacking on both sides. (However, since Christians claim the "high road", I find myself expecting a lot more from them than they seem to be able to give.)
I will refer you to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and the legal definition afterwards...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Now the definition from Bouvier's Law Dictionary, first published in 1836, the first definitive definitional source on early American legal terms, and still considered the foremost authority on that subject today. Definition number 4 for Establish reads thusly...
4. To found, recognize, confirm or admit; as, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...
As we can see, the phrase Mr, Jefferson coined is indeed accurate. "...Wall of Seperation between Church and State...". Our Founders had created a secular Cosntitutional Republic to preserve the rights of the citizens of this Nation, whether they were, indeed, religious or Atheist.
There has always been a theocratic element in this Nation, since our Colonial Period. Indeed, much of the vague wording of the Bill of Rights stems from opposition voiced by these theocrats. Such a theocratic agenda can be exampled in some of their greatest achievments....
A coalition of 11 Protestant churches, led by a Rev. Walkinson, who deluged then Sec. of the Treasury Chase with a letter writting campaign to "include God" into the government. This resulted in the 1865 Coinage Act, and the inclusion of "In God We Trust" into g'ment for the first time on our two cent piece. Note the date, the end of our Civil War when the Nation was trying to put herself back together again. Also note that this Coinage Act did not pass Unanimously and nearly failed.
The addition of "under God" to our Pledge of Allegience in 1954, a Pledge written by the REVEREND Francis Bellamy and passed into US Flag Codes in 1932.
The near eradication of our original, Founder crafted National Motto two year later, E Pluribu Unum, a Motto that stood proudly as the figurehead of this Nation for 174 years before being lost to the theocratic agenda during the Red Scare of the 1950's, replaced with a prayer.
Prayers and religion belong in the private sector, homes, Churches, parochial schools. It has no business being endorsed or supported by a g'ment who looks over people of every single religion on the planet, and people who hold to no religion. There are indeed loud vioces, sir and/or madam, as people on our side, the secularists, attempt to return this Nation to her roots and the intents of her Founding so that all may enjoy a more perfect freedom and equality, and people on the other side, the theocrats, who seek to further and support their Religion through g'ment.
I will refer you to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and the legal definition afterwards...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Now the definition from Bouvier's Law Dictionary, first published in 1836, the first definitive definitional source on early American legal terms, and still considered the foremost authority on that subject today. Definition number 4 for Establish reads thusly...
4. To found, recognize, confirm or admit; as, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...
As we can see, the phrase Mr, Jefferson coined is indeed accurate. "...Wall of Seperation between Church and State...". Our Founders had created a secular Cosntitutional Republic to preserve the rights of the citizens of this Nation, whether they were, indeed, religious or Atheist.
There has always been a theocratic element in this Nation, since our Colonial Period. Indeed, much of the vague wording of the Bill of Rights stems from opposition voiced by these theocrats. Such a theocratic agenda can be exampled in some of their greatest achievments....
A coalition of 11 Protestant churches, led by a Rev. Walkinson, who deluged then Sec. of the Treasury Chase with a letter writting campaign to "include God" into the government. This resulted in the 1865 Coinage Act, and the inclusion of "In God We Trust" into g'ment for the first time on our two cent piece. Note the date, the end of our Civil War when the Nation was trying to put herself back together again. Also note that this Coinage Act did not pass Unanimously and nearly failed.
The addition of "under God" to our Pledge of Allegience in 1954, a Pledge written by the REVEREND Francis Bellamy and passed into US Flag Codes in 1932.
The near eradication of our original, Founder crafted National Motto two year later, E Pluribu Unum, a Motto that stood proudly as the figurehead of this Nation for 174 years before being lost to the theocratic agenda during the Red Scare of the 1950's, replaced with a prayer.
Prayers and religion belong in the private sector, homes, Churches, parochial schools. It has no business being endorsed or supported by a g'ment who looks over people of every single religion on the planet, and people who hold to no religion. There are indeed loud vioces, sir and/or madam, as people on our side, the secularists, attempt to return this Nation to her roots and the intents of her Founding so that all may enjoy a more perfect freedom and equality, and people on the other side, the theocrats, who seek to further and support their Religion through g'ment.
The near eradication of our original, Founder crafted National Motto two year later, E Pluribus Unum, a Motto that stood proudly as the figurehead of this Nation for 174 years before being lost to the theocratic agenda during the Red Scare of the 1950's, replaced with a prayer.
E Pluribus Unum "Out of many one."
The thing is that was probably an excuse for way more violence and problems than "In God We Trust." Pretty much the only negative "In God We Trust" does is make some people feel bad. Our laws do not have to be in accordance with any religion. The "God" mentioned is pretty much a "civic deism" as the courts have always said. Unlike the Netherlands or Germany we have no avowedly religious political parties. Atheists can be elected to most any office.
However the ideal of "Out of many one" was a pretty direct inspiration for some brutal efforts at assimilation. Force people to change their "foreigny" names? "Out of many one." Shoot a bunch of Sioux at Wounded Knee? Sorry Sioux, but you were being separatist. Smash up anti-UK newspapers during WWI? Sorry but you weren't being a team-player, you were too "not at one" with us.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 07-23-2009 at 04:58 AM..
The thing is that was probably an excuse for way more violence and problems than "In God We Trust." Pretty much the only negative "In God We Trust" does is make some people feel bad. Our laws do not have to be in accordance with any religion. The "God" mentioned is pretty much a "civic deism" as the courts have always said. Unlike the Netherlands or Germany we have no avowedly religious political parties. Atheists can be elected to most any office.
However the ideal of "Out of many one" was a pretty direct inspiration for some brutal efforts at assimilation. Force people to change their "foreigny" names? "Out of many one." Shoot a bunch of Sioux at Wounded Knee? Sorry Sioux, but you were being separatist. Smash up anti-UK newspapers during WWI? Sorry but you weren't being a team-player, you were too "not at one" with us.
"In God We Trust" is a Christian Prayer sir, and makes a clear Establishment of Religion. What this, as well as turning our Pledge into a Christian Prayer as well, did was to set the precident for ignoring the Constitution. I will also ask you to re-read the legal definition for Establish that I provided above.
There was no Constitutional Convention to eliminate the Establishment Clause, nor did the Bill even pass unanimously. The latter speaks volumes, as each and every Congressman who voted no faced scrutiny by the McCarthy Commission.
"Civic Deism" is STILL an establishment of religion, and is STILL Constitutionall Illegal. For one thing, Christians, by your religious nature, refuse the existance of other deity, or even the possibility of other deity. It is the Christian God spoken of, no other. Second, NO god may be referenced. The First Amendment specifically states "NO" does it not? And let us not forget that the Ninth District Circut has, indeed, ruled the religious inclusion to the pledge unCosntitutional as well. I fear our Motto and Pledge will enver be returned until Christians either near, or exceed, a minority status in this nation.
Slavery and the near annihalation of Native tribes, their culture and religion were biblically motivated, and were not urged due to the Motto of the time. Manifest Destiny, that which drove those atrocities (also committed by the English Empire, French Colonials, etc. on every continent save one, Antartica) is a biblical concept. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and other wars of convinience were also started under the current replacement Motto, now weren't they.
"In God We Trust" has also inspired people to think we are a "Christian Nation", resulting in religious persecutions not only on a legislative level, but on a civic level as well. We have fought long and hard through many court battles to achieve the status of a Protected Class, and STILL we see things like the VA refusing to place the Wiccan's symbol on the grave of fallen Wiccan soldiers.
Do you honestly consider religious discrimination appropiate in a Nation founded upon that principle?
BTW, people weren't forced to change their "foriengy sounding names", although I will invite you to site & source examples.
"In God We Trust" is a Christian Prayer sir, and makes a clear Establishment of Religion.
Not by any rational or constitutional perspective. I'm not sure the word "God" was even used in the earliest Christian Bibles. I'm pretty sure the word "God" is Germanic in origin. Nor is the concept of a monotheistic God purely Christian or exclusively Christian.
The rest of what you say shows a deep and profound misunderstanding, or downright ignorance, of history. I have a degree in history do you?
That said I messed up a bit. Generally speaking immigrants seemed to have changed names to fit in rather than being forced to change. Still the pressure was there and incidents of changing names did happen albeit usually due to accidents. (I'll admit my area is more European and Asian history)
Last edited by Thomas R.; 07-23-2009 at 10:09 PM..
Still I guess a bit of education might be better than cold derision.
Manifest Destiny is a nationalistic term in origin and execution. Although many religious types felt US should be an example to the world they didn't all feel it should be expansionist. Jefferson and Lincoln, two of our least conventionally religious Presidents, were expansionist. Further noted religious skeptic Thomas Paine stated of America
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again. A situation, similar to the present, hath not happened since the days of Noah until now. The birthday of a new world is at hand"
Expansionism was embraced by many religious, for religious reasons, but also rejected by many of the more religious Whigs. Much later Creationist Williams Jennings Bryan, who has many many qualities I dislike, was adamantly opposed to US imperialism. Either way the basis was nationalistic or at most a mix of nationalism and deism.
I hope that helped. People are very ignorant on history and geography in this country so might fall for any oddball view.
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