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ETA: I appreciate your honesty about how you feel & the fact that we can have a civil debate.
Thank you, and the same likewise.
God declared it a sin to punish the child for the sins of his fathers. Yet, the doctrine of original sin indicates that we are to be punished for the sins of our fathers. That isn't just.
Further, there is no sin that I have committed that would justify eternal damnation. It would not be just to punish me either because (a) I didn't find the evidnece of his existance compelling, or (b) to punish me disproportionate to my personal sins. The threat of eternal punishment for any sin, no matter how slight, is unjust.
As for the genocide, that was fairly common in the old testiment. Joshou was constantly hearing God tell him to slaughter entire villages if they refused to bow down. Sometimes they killed the children, always they killed the men. The virgins were kept as wives/concubines - whether they liked it or not. Sometimes they would do that with the widowed wives of the enemies, sometimes they would just kill them.
That was the practice of the day. Women were chattel, and spoils of war. So no matter how wicked we recognize the practice today, to the writers of the old testiment it was a well accepted fact of life. It was understood that you took the women of a caputred village and made them your sexual servents.
Even women understood this. There are at least 2 stories in the bible of women who couldn't concieve, so they told their husband to have a baby with a concubine - never mind what the concubine had to say about it. That was the times, and that was normal then.
But the difficulty for you Christians is that the writers of the bible, seeing nothing wrong with this, give your God's endorsement to all of these evil acts. So now its set in stone, and you will have to go through a lot of mental gymnastics to explain why this obviously immoral behavior was encouraged and ordered by your God.
Its not just one incident here or there. There are multiple stories in the bible where God ordered innocent women and children killed. There were times god claimed to take innocent life himself. Now your Christians are put in the difficult position of defending the morality of 2000 years ago.
Yes i am japanese and I am totally knew to christianity and all this religious love fest in america, everything to me sounds so ridiculous and strange too me..
Lol, I was born here, and lived here for a large portion of my life and it still sounds really strange to me also.
The whole theist argument departs from the premise that you are guilty irrespective of proof hence you lot defer to the sin of Adam and Eve.
Please answer this question:
What sin or if you prefer what sins?
You may have more credibility if you said "human imperfections" but we are lambasted with our supposed sins.
The word sin means falling short of the mark so while you are about it explain what this mark is. I am not an archer so I cannot correlate the simile.
No takers?
You say Jesus died for my sins right? Well what sins would those be?
Before I answer your question, be assured that I know you already know the answer. Nevertheless...
The mark, in this case, is the standard of perfection established by God and evidenced by Jesus. Viewed in that light, it is clear that we are all sinners.
Awesome, ill just tell the evangelicals what you told me so i can be left alone. Us japanese sin alot less than americans (hence lowest crime rate in the world) but I guess we will go to hell because we don't ask an invisible being for forgiveness? OOooohh scary. Anyways thanks for agreeing with me. I made this thread because i was tired of all the christians telling atheists jesus died for our sins.
It's also nice god gave us free will but punishes us for using it.
Hey, cool, we can have teppanyaki at the "Welcome to Hell!" Barbecue and Fish Fry.
Wonder how we could manage sushi? Probably be tough to pull off. Boy, that would be Hell.
Before I answer your question, be assured that I know you already know the answer. Nevertheless...
The mark, in this case, is the standard of perfection established by God and evidenced by Jesus. Viewed in that light, it is clear that we are all sinners.
No it is not clear.
First of all you have to have a preamble of what a possible sin may be. If it is based on the bible then if one is not "familiar" with the contents of said book, then how can you make a statement saying we are all sinners. You may be but that does not necessarily mean I am now does it. You base your morals/values on the "book" yet even that book states that what is sin to one man may not be sin to another, happy is he who does not condemn himself in that which he approves (both citations of Paul - paraphrased)
The whole koolaid phase of "Jesus died for your sins" you cannot give an answer of stating what those sins might be can you? Hence you defer to the "original sin" which contradicts the bible stating that one does not pay for the sins of the father nullifying that premise, but then we have the inverse where your gawd states he will visit iniquity up to the the 4th generation on anyone that pisses him off. Which is it?
So for me to buy into your delusion, you first have to make me feel guilty, if I do not buy that, then your postulation goes pfzzt.
I am imperfect. Is my imperfection a sin? If so then your gawd screwed up big time with creation.
Of course one cannot go and state what one thinks another is sinful of now can one? Thus you defer to painting all with a broad brush to infer that we are all sinners.
Thus my question remains, If Jesus died for my sins, what are those sins?
Getting back to the mark of perfection established by your god, how is it possible he creates us with a flaw and then expects us to measure up to his standard? You are set up to fail from the onset, nice gawd huh?
You see these are the contradictions that theists have (btw I was one for 30+ years)
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.
There you have it. It infers that all men are evil, but is that really what is stated?
I am a John 3:21 guy but most of the folk that have ever screwed me in business were xians and FTR, the folk who have never screwed me are athiests or Muslims. Folk have told me I am too honest to be a successful businessman - guess who those folk were? Xians.
The whole theist argument departs from the premise that you are guilty irrespective of proof hence you lot defer to the sin of Adam and Eve.
Please answer this question:
What sin or if you prefer what sins?
You may have more credibility if you said "human imperfections" but we are lambasted with our supposed sins.
The word sin means falling short of the mark so while you are about it explain what this mark is. I am not an archer so I cannot correlate the simile.
What sins? Well, have you ever been angry, or bitter about something? Ever been worried or afraid? How about arrogant or proud as in pride? Have you ever gossiped or told a lie? Have you ever lusted after someone or something? Did you ever disobey your parents? Did you ever steal anything, even a piece of candy? These are examples of personal sins. BUT, the point is that God NEVER imputed those personal sins to you for judgement. Instead, He temporarily set them aside until that time in human history when Christ paid the penalty for them. As I explained in previous posts on this same thread, the only sin ever imputed to us was Adams original sin. And I did an excellent job of explaining it. If anyone is interested, please go back and read it and think about what I was saying. The only reason God comdemned us for Adam's original sin instead of our own personal sins is so He could set up a situation where you could secure an eternal relationship with Him instead of being in a situation where your continued relationship with Him depended on continued obedience if He had imputed your personal sins to you.
The mark is Gods absolute and perfect rightousness and justice which is His Holiness. Or if you prefer, His integrity. Gods perfect rightousness cannot have fellowship with man's inperfect and relative rightousness. Unlike man, God can not and will not compromise any aspect of His nature. A human judge finds a criminal guilty of a crime and pronounces judgement on him. Would you expect anything less from an eternal, infinite, and Holy God. He must apply justice where justice is due. But because He is also love, He found a solution to the sin problem by making it possible for one man, Jesus Chist, to pay the penalty for all. And Jesus, because He loved us volunteered to do this.
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