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In my opinion, the doctrine of original sin is one of the most objectionable aspects of ...
snip for brevity...
....hweh was really fair, he would give everyone an equal chance to either accept him or reject him. Nobody would die prematurely, nobody would be indoctrinated with false beliefs by their parents, everyone would have an equal chance for paradise.
First, for a 日本人, you do English very well. I'm just a "hen-nah Canada-jin", converted to (fled to, actually) 'Murika, home of the free and land of the brave, or whatever.
Second, you make great points, but I wouldn't anticipate any convertin' goin' on here any time soon. I've come to the conclusion that the BSMs* willfully "interlope" on the A&A sub-forum just to taunt us, perhaps to report back to the Hive Manager that they got "x" number of us all riled up. HaHa.. score points for them, huh?
I'd say we all ought to wander over to the Christian sub-forum and have at their posts. But you know what? Their very protective moderators would quickly "bounce" us outa here, hitting us with some accumulating penalty points.
We do have an excellent mod over here somewhere; she's fabulous and very fair, but hey, not to mention any names.
"Jesus died for your sins" is simply a guilt-trip statement, intended to garner a few more quivering acolytes, especially the young. On top of that, even though I'd never given it too much consideration, a few C-D posts got me to investigating whether Jesus even existed.
Seems as though he did not, at least there's no more proof of that than there is for Genesis or The Ark. No records for his childhood or teen or young adult years, just some statements that he has a normal childhood, and that he just "was".
Riiiigggghhhttt...."Hi. Hey! Nice to meet you girls!. No, I don't have my own chariot... Dad wouldn't get me one! Darned parents! He always wants me to clean up around the shop, too. What does he think I have, a lot of spare time?
But, hey: I am also the son of God, and I can turn that flask of water you have into enough wine to get us ALL blotto down at the beach!"
Since I haven't personally sinned, I mean, not too much, but I've done a whole lot to help the "lesser beasts" on this planet, saving them from the greedy CEOs of a lot of big Christian mega-corporations (oil companies, mostly), I think I get a free pass to go directly to heaven. You know, where the girls are!
See you there. We'll share someudori-ebi!
Last edited by rifleman; 08-06-2009 at 06:16 PM..
Reason: typoz
We have to fall down in absolute supplication to your gods, go to church and tithe regularly, follow the laws of the church explicitly (or at least "repent" on a regular basis for breaking those "laws") including helping to coerce others into the religion, etc, etc, or we go to hell.
Gotcha.
We need to ignore a few facts along the way tho, like your scripture being disproven without any effort by simple sciences, and clear contradictions like your same scriptures claiming that a child may not be punished for the sins of their father, which indicates to a thinking person that No One is culpable of any "original sin".
That about sums it up?
No. Once saved through one simple act of faith in Christ and you are saved. You can not work to gain salvation and you cannot and do not work to maintain your salvation. That's eternal security. God wants you to learn about Him and grow spiritually after you are saved but whether you choose to or not is up to you. If you don't go to church you are still saved, if you don't fall down on your knees you don't lose your salvation, and tithing was never spiritual giving. In ancient Israel tithing was income tax and was imposed on everyone whether they believed in a coming Messiah or not. There was a spiritual giving but it was voluntary and was not a set amount like 10%.
And science has never and can never disprove anything the Bible says. Science by it's very nature must confine itself to that which is testable and measureable. Science must concern itself with empirical perception. It must deal with the natural and can not understand the supernatural. But the supernatural world is even more real than the natural world. But science, as beneficial to man as it has been can not discern it. The Bible doesn't say the world is flat. When it mentions the four corners of the world it is simply referring to north, south, east, and west. The four compass points as we might call it. Contrary to popular opinion, most learned men in the ancient world knew the world was round and not flat. Why is man's DNA similar to a chimpanzee and to other animals? Just as God created the first man from the dust of the ground so also He created the original animal life from the same dust. Biologically speaking, we are all made of the same kinds of chemicals but it is the variations in the DNA that result in the differences in all the different kinds of animals in the world. But that's physically speaking. God gave man a soul and originally, a human spirit so that we could have a relationship with Him.
Yes, God gave a law that a son isn't to be punished for something his father did. But God didn't impute Adam's original sin to the entire human race for PUNISHMENT. He imputed it to all mankind so that all who choose to can be eternally secure by an act of faith in Christ. He imputed Adam's sin to the entire human race so that He could be free to extend His grace to all mankind without compromising His justice and righteousness. He did it so that your own personal sins would not be an issue. So that the issue would become whether or not you would accept the work on the cross that Jesus did for you. If you don't accept the work that Christ did for you by not believing in Him, your sins are not an issue, but rather by refusing the work Christ did on your behalf, you by default stand on your own good works. At the Great White Throne judgment sin will never be mentioned because it was already paid for. Law of double jeopardy. God, specifically, Jesus Christ will open up a set of books, that's right, books. The book of life will have the names of everone who has believed in Christ. If you never believed in Him then your name will not be listed there. Then He will open of a book that contains all the good deeds, all the works you ever did and add them all up and then explain to you that all your good works are not compatable with His righteousness. His righeousness is absolute. Our righteousness is relative and therefore God can have nothing to do with relative righteousness and so it is your standing on your own good works which is the basis for your condemnation. Not your sins.
No. Once saved through one simple act of faith in Christ and you are saved. You can not work to gain salvation and you cannot and do not work to maintain your salvation. That's eternal security. God wants you to learn about Him and grow spiritually after you are saved but whether you choose to or not is up to you. If you don't go to church you are still saved, if you don't fall down on your knees you don't lose your salvation, and tithing was never spiritual giving. In ancient Israel tithing was income tax and was imposed on everyone whether they believed in a coming Messiah or not. There was a spiritual giving but it was voluntary and was not a set amount like 10%.
More theopolitical mumbo-jumbo. Neither you nor anyone else, in my entire life, has given me one good, substancial reason why I need to "be saved". The usual responses, which you've given, include "to get into heaven", "Jesus died for your sins", or the ever popular "you're going to hell if you don't". Now, considering that most religions not centered on either your Christ or Jehovah are much older than Judeism, as proven by hard physical evidence, I find the reasons given so far, including when I was a Roman Catholic, severely lacking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And science has never and can never disprove anything the Bible says. Science by it's very nature must confine itself to that which is testable and measureable. Science must concern itself with empirical perception. It must deal with the natural and can not understand the supernatural. But the supernatural world is even more real than the natural world. But science, as beneficial to man as it has been can not discern it. The Bible doesn't say the world is flat. When it mentions the four corners of the world it is simply referring to north, south, east, and west. The four compass points as we might call it. Contrary to popular opinion, most learned men in the ancient world knew the world was round and not flat. Why is man's DNA similar to a chimpanzee and to other animals? Just as God created the first man from the dust of the ground so also He created the original animal life from the same dust. Biologically speaking, we are all made of the same kinds of chemicals but it is the variations in the DNA that result in the differences in all the different kinds of animals in the world. But that's physically speaking. God gave man a soul and originally, a human spirit so that we could have a relationship with Him.
A "Great Flood" is certainly testable, and there is a complete lack of any scientific evidence proving a great flood. Not enough water on, or in, the planet, no fossil evidence of everything on the planet dying within days, simple hydrodynamics and meterology shows it to be bunk, etc.
Indeed, without even trying, which I find quite eloquent, science disproves each and every myth associated with your sciprtues, and much of the supposed "historical" aspects as well.
Science disproves the idea of Creatism/ID by showing that Evolution is a proven Theory. Your scriptures say nothing of your god creating anything after the sixth day. Geology proves the earth to be 4.6 million years old. Basic biology proves that no one can live centuries. Basic mechanical engineering, and common sences, tells us that tens of millions of animals are not going to fit on one wooden craft. Et cetera ad nauseum.
If each and every myth is disproven, there is to reason to assume anything else in scriptures is accurate or true, that includes your heaven and hell, your god, your christ, et all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Yes, God gave a law that a son isn't to be punished for something his father did. But God didn't impute Adam's original sin to the entire human race for PUNISHMENT. He imputed it to all mankind so that all who choose to can be eternally secure by an act of faith in Christ. He imputed Adam's sin to the entire human race so that He could be free to extend His grace to all mankind without compromising His justice and righteousness. He did it so that your own personal sins would not be an issue. So that the issue would become whether or not you would accept the work on the cross that Jesus did for you. If you don't accept the work that Christ did for you by not believing in Him, your sins are not an issue, but rather by refusing the work Christ did on your behalf, you by default stand on your own good works. At the Great White Throne judgment sin will never be mentioned because it was already paid for. Law of double jeopardy. God, specifically, Jesus Christ will open up a set of books, that's right, books. The book of life will have the names of everone who has believed in Christ. If you never believed in Him then your name will not be listed there. Then He will open of a book that contains all the good deeds, all the works you ever did and add them all up and then explain to you that all your good works are not compatable with His righteousness. His righeousness is absolute. Our righteousness is relative and therefore God can have nothing to do with relative righteousness and so it is your standing on your own good works which is the basis for your condemnation. Not your sins.
Well, I will give you an A+ for trying, and say some of your arguments are "unique", but they still fall far short. By your "god giving an original sin" to everyone so that tehy woudl be "saved", is giving a premptive punishment.
Sorry to say, your message is merely the same as everyone elses.
More theopolitical mumbo-jumbo. Neither you nor anyone else, in my entire life, has given me one good, substancial reason why I need to "be saved". The usual responses, which you've given, include "to get into heaven", "Jesus died for your sins", or the ever popular "you're going to hell if you don't". Now, considering that most religions not centered on either your Christ or Jehovah are much older than Judeism, as proven by hard physical evidence, I find the reasons given so far, including when I was a Roman Catholic, severely lacking.
A "Great Flood" is certainly testable, and there is a complete lack of any scientific evidence proving a great flood. Not enough water on, or in, the planet, no fossil evidence of everything on the planet dying within days, simple hydrodynamics and meterology shows it to be bunk, etc.
Indeed, without even trying, which I find quite eloquent, science disproves each and every myth associated with your sciprtues, and much of the supposed "historical" aspects as well.
Science disproves the idea of Creatism/ID by showing that Evolution is a proven Theory. Your scriptures say nothing of your god creating anything after the sixth day. Geology proves the earth to be 4.6 million years old. Basic biology proves that no one can live centuries. Basic mechanical engineering, and common sences, tells us that tens of millions of animals are not going to fit on one wooden craft. Et cetera ad nauseum.
If each and every myth is disproven, there is to reason to assume anything else in scriptures is accurate or true, that includes your heaven and hell, your god, your christ, et all.
Well, I will give you an A+ for trying, and say some of your arguments are "unique", but they still fall far short. By your "god giving an original sin" to everyone so that tehy woudl be "saved", is giving a premptive punishment.
Sorry to say, your message is merely the same as everyone elses.
Worship god/christ or go to hell.
You have been given the reason why we all must be saved. You simply don't accept the reason.
The religions you speak of were counterfeits of Satan. The Gospel was given to Adam immediately after he fell. Satan knew the details involved with the future coming Messiah and it was a simple matter to introduce into the world in advance of the fact, counterfeit religions telling of messiahs that appear similar to the true Messiah, Jesus Christ. The reason was to cause confusion and doubt.
After the flood, God resculptured the planet. The mountains were raised and the valleys sank down. The ocean basins were deepened to contain the waters in their boundaries. The present day oceans are the flood waters that covered the earth. Science tends to reqard the geology of the earth from a uniformism perspective. But the geologic history of our planet is better seen from the perspective of catastrophism. The flood was a catastrophy that disposited marine fossils on the tops of mountains and in other places that you might not expect to find them. Science incorrectly attributes those fossils to ancient oceans. Things of that nature.
Rather than disproving the Bible, archaeology from time to time confirms the Bible in matters of history.
Yes, my message is the same as others have stated. And the message is true. And that message is as old as the counsels of God from eternity past.
I do understand some of your antagonisn toward the Bible since you were involved with Roman Catholicism. Very little of what it teaches is Biblically correct. The Catholic church is another counterfeit religion from Satan and is not true Christianity.
It is clear to me now that you are set in your disbelief and so there is no futher point in continuing on with this. So I leave you to your disbelief. Carry on.
You just don't get it and apparently don't want to. You completely failed to grasp what I have said. God does not hold your sins against you. He has gone to great lengths so that we don't have to suffer the penalty for our sins as they relate to eternal salvation or eternal comdemnation. And you are never supposed to feel guilty for your sins. Any person or church that tries to make you feel guilty for your sins does not understand the grace of God.
No I did not fail to grasp what you said. Fine god does not hold my misdemeanors against me but in place of that he/it holds me accountable for something (multiple g's) grandfather did? And of course according to xianity, Jesus is gawd himself so in a circular way, it really makes no difference now does it?
No one really tried to make me feel guilty except one dude who was really f*ed up - family and all. The whole premise departs from that you are guilty - cannot be proven innocent and thus MUST use the deferred scapegoat of Jesus aka god himself.
The way I see it is if this were true, god realised that he screwed up and instituted plan B or is that C?
Quote:
But here is good news for you. I think you said earlier that you used to be a believer. Well, if at some point in your life you did believe in Christ for salvation, then even though you no longer do, you are still saved and have and always will have eternal life and will spend all eternity in the presence of God. You will never lose your salvation.
Aah the OSAS doctrine? Well that is just another apologetic to deal with folk like me and dismiss my objections.
Quote:
THAT is the result of Adams orginal sin being imputed to you instead of your own personal sins. This is what God has done for YOU.
Well full circle. still I am suckered with the mistake of someone I never knew and who more likely never existed in the 1st place.
Hence we are made to accept that Adam imputed a genetic defect to us all and thus the cure is Jesus. Seeing your god allegedly made both of them does make him/it seem schitzo don't you think
In reality, the god you worship was made in man's image. While you are made to believe one can never achieve a level of perfection as inferred by Jesus (if he really said that I doubt it) I have accepted my imperfections and dealt with them as best as I could.
Like I said, I no longer have guilt trips. At the end of the day, we want it to be true but it is all myths and fairy tales.
How did one get on God's happy side before Jesus? Being a good person and keeping the sin to a minimum? If that's the case, more people stood a decent chance before Christ to avoid eternal damnation. Or did everyone back then all go to hell because, as one can gather from the Old Testament, God was not a happy camper in those days.
What about the billions of people today who live good, moral lives but pick the wrong religion and will one day be cast into the pits of hell with me.
Just think of how many more people could have avoided hell if it weren't for Jesus?
You'd think an all-knowing creator could have come up with a better plan for humanity's salvation.
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