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Two points:
1.) John was having a vision, he was not actually there.
2.) The new heaven and new earth come down, people can be on earth and still be before the throne, while not being in heaven. Do you consider yourself to be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven? Are you actually there though?
It is important not to confuse, Heaven (A place. Most times, simply the sky, other times the home of God) and the Kingdom of Heaven (a realm of authority).
The KJV and many other translations are terribly misleading when compared to the Hebrew and Greek word choices.
Personally I think the church just started teaching this to help mourners feel a sense of comfort when someone passed away. Besides they could charge money to have another service.
At this point, the New Jerusalem had not been established. This was still the 3rd heaven.
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Please note:
John had gone "up" to heaven when he witnessed this.
Revelation 4
The Throne in Heaven
1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."
The Great Multitude John saw in his vision are the martyrs who were beheaded in the Great Tribulation. This event is after the "gathering of the saints" which is the 1st resurrection and rapture of the righteous. They rose up to the sky to meet Jesus Christ for the "wedding" before coming down to establish God's Kingdom on earth. They will rule with him as kings and priests for 1000 years.
The Great Multitude John saw in his vision are the martyrs who were beheaded in the Great Tribulation. This event is after the "gathering of the saints" which is the 1st resurrection and rapture of the righteous. They rose up to the sky to meet Jesus Christ for the "wedding" before coming down to establish God's Kingdom on earth. They will rule with him as kings and priests for 1000 years.
At this point, the New Jerusalem had not been established. This was still the 3rd heaven. Whatever state John was in, he was called "up".
I wouldn't base a belief system of going to heaven on the state of John being "up". We've all been "caught up" in a dream before, not really a foundation for an entire doctrine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilvan
The Great Multitude John saw in his vision are the martyrs who were beheaded in the Great Tribulation. This event is after the "gathering of the saints" which is the 1st resurrection and rapture of the righteous. They rose up to the sky to meet Jesus Christ for the "wedding" before coming down to establish God's Kingdom on earth. They will rule with him as kings and priests for 1000 years.
For 2,000 years great thinkers have been taking a stab at interpreting the book of revelation, most differ significantly. In fact Martin Luther did not believe it even belonged in the canonization. Nearly the entire book is symbolism and metafore, so you can't conveniently lift a verse and conject it to mean anyone is physically going to heaven. Further, you haven't provided a verse that actually says anyone is in heaven, just your interpretation of this troublesome book with hundreds of fanciful interpretations.
John was NOT in heaven in the book, he was having a vision on earth, his feet in the sand(Rev 13:1), 2,000 years ago. Further, it is meer conjecture that rising up to meet Jesus is equivalent to going to heaven. You're sort of illustrating the point of this thread and my original post quite nicely...
Another note about the opening of Revelation is that it declares it "must shortly come to pass" Rev. 1:1 and goes immediately into discussing the 7 churchs that existed right then. I'm not going to let this thread get too far derided by a frivolous discussion about revelation, but the point is that people like to switch between vision, metafore, and literal when trying to use the book to make a solid case for their point, such arguements fall apart everytime, because they lack fundamental context.
Now, just to help you out here are the best verses you might still insist on pulling out of this book of vision to declare you've had ultimate triumph in definativiely proving people go to heaven when they die.(Also note much of this book of the future appears to record a period of pre-human creation)
Rev 4:1 simply says, come up higher, not come into heaven, and it is a coming higher in his dream/vision, not actually either physically coming up higher or entering heaven.
Rev 10:4 .... and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me...
Note the voice came to him from heaven, so there is still no support he was actually in heaven.
Rev 19:14 And the armies4753 which were in heaven3772
G3772 the sky; by extension heaven - this means the sky but again men have conjected it to mean the abode of God, but that's not what the Greek word translates to, but that's translator bias for you.
G4753 an armament, that is, (by implication) a body of troops (more or less extensive or systematic): - army, soldier, man of war.
Note: These soldiers are merely presumed to be the souls of men, rather than heavenly beings.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven3772 saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven3772 in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. No where are these two prophets declared to be humans, but even if they are, they are raised into the sky in this vision/dream. Further, do real men have fire coming out of their mouths? Read it...
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies...
These witnesses are assumed by common christiandom to be mere mortal men, but clearly they are symbolic or celestial.
Rev 5:3 And no man3762 in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
3762 - not even one, that is, none, nobody, nothing
In this verse the KJV translators are choosing to replace the generically used "no being" concept with the word "man". More mis-leading and translation bias.
So that's about the best you're going to do to pull a supposed theory of going to heaven upon death from this symbolic book of vision/dream. A pretty thin case by any reasonable wisedom.
At some point it is going to become apparent how much the RC Church of 1700 years distorted the message of the gospel to their own gain.
Honestly, what's the point? why not turn your thinker on and actually say something useful, instead of voting.
One should not take too much notice of "how many" said this or that.What is important is how things really are, not how many people believe this or that.Deciding truths by voting is seldom a good way. It can only show what people believe.Some peoples beliefs might of course be right, but too often correct information and relevant listening experiences drowns in common misconceptions, preconceived notions and the media background noise. - Ing. Öhman of the Swedish Audio Technical Society
i respectfully disagree. jesus mentions his fathers house.
numerous bible examples of ascension. paradise is referred to on several occasions.
heaven/paradise is not unique to christianity.
how sad that islam giives jesus and the scriptures more respect than do americans.
So who are the 24 elders in heaven found in Rev 4:4 & Rev 11:16? John saw them in his vision and they are already in Heaven.
In Matt 27:50-53 we read that when Jesus died on the cross, the graves (of the 24 elders?) were opened and after Jesus' resurrection, they went out to the city and many people saw them.
These 24 elders are the first of the Firstfruits who are now in heaven... probably waiting for the time in the future when the righteous dead are resurrected and the raptured elect "gathered" for the "wedding." These 24 elders, in my opinion, will probably serve as the Generals leading the army of saints when they all come down to earth with Jesus Christ!
Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I'm astonished that no one has attacked this post vehemently. I guess it either went unnoticed or they tried to find a scripture that contradicts my point, and failed.
The interesting thing is that if you begin to realize that people going to heaven, or going to hell are not truly taught by the scriptures, it makes our time here on this earth so much more important to live to the fullest, and not get so "heavenly minded" that you miss life.
BINGO! That is the prize! Jesus taught more about life, yep just plain old life on earth, than He ever did about heaven and hell! Yet people think they deserve a reward for faith (heaven) and a punishment for whatever is not what they believe (hell). Whatcha gonna do
I mean easier for a camel in needle than rich man in heaven lol I was thinking man that's kind of gross, trying to get into a poor animals eye
I've read this twice and it still causes spontaneous laughter! You should put a disclaimer cuz my stomach muscles are hurting! The man into the camel's eye picture is gross yes but hilarious the way you said it!
I'm astonished that no one has attacked this post vehemently. I guess it either went unnoticed or they tried to find a scripture that contradicts my point, and failed.
The interesting thing is that if you begin to realize that people going to heaven, or going to hell are not truly taught by the scriptures, it makes our time here on this earth so much more important to live to the fullest, and not get so "heavenly minded" that you miss life.
So when do you think people will realize that there is no rapture? That the second coming is a thing of the past and that the "new earth" and "kingdom of heaven" is already here. Just read through Revelations and the writings of Josephus and you will see that Jesus' teachings were about this life here and now and the "new earth" is the same one only transformed by the way we live because we know the truth. It's all just a metaphor for the transition from life of serving the law (the ten commandments) to life of serving love (the two commandments).
Matt. 22:34-40 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
But to prevent the multitude of controversy I will start a new thread with the info...
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