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Personally, though I am not trying to rush what's inevitable, I'm really looking forward to the time when the limitations that come with physical bodies no longer apply to me. In spiritual experiences I have sampled some of that, it's truly wonderful if you are prepared for it.
I do though have a natural fear of the process of dying, hoping to avoid physically felt trauma and pain.
Well, I can agree with that. A painful death is nothing to look forward to, but actually being dead is an idea that doesn't bother me.
I can understand that you are looking forward to what you are expecting. The logic is, though, that you have no guarantee that you'll get that just because you want it. And your assumption that these 'spiritual experiences' you speak of are going to continue after death has no support other than your desire that they should.
It is an attractive package, I agree. But it bothers me that there is no real reason to suppose it is actually going to happen.
That said, it is something that we can leave to 'wait and see'. So long as it is not used as a bribe or threat to try to get us to do things here and now that otherwise we wouldn't bother to do. That would effectively be blackmail or coersion with a threat that we don't know is real and it's a case of whether we are willing to risk that threat being real as against being bamboozled out of the life we have. That is what religions very often do.
If your afterlife expectations don't do that, I can dissent on logical grounds but be easy about it. If they do, I have a problem with it.
Well, I can agree with that. A painful death is nothing to look forward to, but actually being dead is an idea that doesn't bother me.
I can understand that you are looking forward to what you are expecting. The logic is, though, that you have no guarantee that you'll get that just because you want it. And your assumption that these 'spiritual experiences' you speak of are going to continue after death has no support other than your desire that they should.
It is an attractive package, I agree. But it bothers me that there is no real reason to suppose it is actually going to happen.
That said, it is something that we can leave to 'wait and see'. So long as it is not used as a bribe or threat to try to get us to do things here and now that otherwise we wouldn't bother to do. That would effectively be blackmail or coersion with a threat that we don't know is real and it's a case of whether we are willing to risk that threat being real as against being bamboozled out of the life we have. That is what religions very often do.
If your afterlife expectations don't do that, I can dissent on logical grounds but be easy about it. If they do, I have a problem with it.
Thoughtful post Arequipa, thank-you for sharing that.
I agree that threats of hellfire and damnation etc. are not the best way to share one's belief in a loving, just, and merciful Heavenly Father who reaches out to His children on earth and offers to each of us His Plan for our eternal happiness.
The problem is that those who believe in God because of personal experiences happen to know that your belief is faulty. Like it or not, life goes on after death, as you will inevitably find out for yourself...
I'm afraid I'm not the one who's gonna be in for a surprise at death. Really, neither are you, since you'll be worm food along with the rest of us.
Your consciousness depends on the brain. When that goes, so does everything else. You can't separate the mind from the brain.
"Even in this so-called era of the brain, there has been no consensual agreement on understanding the genesis of the mind by the brain, the problem that also baffled Freud, the neurologist at the start of his great discoveries. Especially, there has been no progress in solving what is known as the “hard problem,” namely, how neurophysiological processes in the brain can produce conscious experiences, feelings, and intentions that constitute the “qualia,” the various aspects of the phenomena of consciousness."
"Even in this so-called era of the brain, there has been no consensual agreement on understanding the genesis of the mind by the brain, the problem that also baffled Freud, the neurologist at the start of his great discoveries. Especially, there has been no progress in solving what is known as the “hard problem,” namely, how neurophysiological processes in the brain can produce conscious experiences, feelings, and intentions that constitute the “qualia,” the various aspects of the phenomena of consciousness."
I'm not sure how you get any sort of proof for an afterlife from that, but hey, if believing in such things keep you out of a straight jacket, go right ahead.
and if you'll open your mind up just a little bit, just for a moment, you should read this and at least consider the possibility of it being true.
You know, I admire those of you who have so much faith in your beliefs that you have convinced yourself that there is no God. But when you turn to science to support your minority group belief, you're actually on a very shaky foundation.
Two of my sons are doctors, one a professor of psychiatry, a noted national expert in his sub-specialty. Both of them are very religious, the psychiatrist perhaps even more so than I am. Both firmly believe in life after death, both firmly believe in God.
I think you'll find that in many many scientists.
As I mentioned before, there's a place for Science, and there's a place for Religion. Science will never prove that there is no consciousness after the death of the physical body, and science will never prove that there is no God; the manufactured tools and empirical methods of science are just not designed for such a task. Anyone who thinks that there is no God or that they cease to exist at death is just going by faith, the very element they tend to criticize religious folk for exercising...
One can not have conscious thought with out a functioning brain - even if the person is still alive. Why would they have conscious though without a functioning brain if they were dead?
Just because Science can't explain every detail of how the brain creates thought, it is very clear that it is in fact the brain that is causing it.
One can not have conscious thought with out a functioning brain - even if the person is still alive. Why would they have conscious though without a functioning brain if they were dead? Just because Science can't explain every detail of how the brain creates thought, it is very clear that it is in fact the brain that is causing it.
It is not "very clear" and is not a "fact" that "the brain is causing it" (consciousness.)
Man is a dual creature, composed of both physical and spiritual elements. Atheists choose to disbelieve that, and to close their minds to the spiritual part of their nature.
Sure, the brain may be like a radio receiver, it translates invisible external signals to a form that the five senses can detect. (Actually, I don't think it works that way but it's a useful analogy for those who choose to keep their heads in the sand and ignore the spirit that is so readily apparent to most people.)
The phenomenon of consciousness is not understood by science but is explained by religion. The spirit body ("soul" "ghost in the machine") animates and integrates the myriad intelligent parts that make up the physical body. Like a hand inside a glove, remove the hand and the glove falls to the ground, loses its ability to move of its own volition, and will eventually disintegrate. The same thing happens not long after the spirit makes its final departure from the physical body. (The spirit is the actual center of consciousness, as those who meditate for lengthy periods of time often discover.)
Think of that as an hypothesis if you will, that might be more acceptable and might give you some pause to question your faith in your belief that "you" are only a physical body and will cease to exist when that physical tabernacle dies. Science does not support your belief, it is founded only in faith...
Everyone, atheist and beliver alike, rely on faith. It just depends on what you put your faith in. I mean you can be a firm atheist and if so this would typically mean you've put your "faith" in those whose opinions you're read/head against the existance of "god" and sound reasonable to you.
Not true. Why assume that we follow some atheist guru? We may respect someones opinion but that is as far as it goes. Unlike theists, we check out what others claim/purport
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You can have the most cynical and scientific mind on Earth....and yet if you don't "assume" (which is faith really) you'll never get anywhere with your thinking. You would have to have "faith" that the previous scientific minds you're basing your "belief" on did truly use objective methods to "prove" their findings.
Thus by your definition, you can only "assume" god exists?
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I could be wrong here....but it seems to me that recently some scientists were questioning a few of Einstein's findings about things ????
He was a scientist, not St. Einstein ( maybe the RCC will canonize him sometime in the future, then you can maybe use this argument)
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The point is to keep an open mind and be willing to change your "faith" as need be when new findings come out.
I think we heathen are open minded, our level of "evidence" is just higher.
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My beef if you will with some believers is that they have blind faith. They will not even entertain any other explanation and dismiss everything that would even remotely contradict their view of how things are. I'd be hard pressed to say blind faith would ever be a good thing.
No objection here. You sound like a reasonable person.
It is not "very clear" and is not a "fact" that "the brain is causing it" (consciousness.)
From what age do you have memories? You were of course conscious post birth, just were not aware - think about that?
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Man is a dual creature, composed of both physical and spiritual elements. Atheists choose to disbelieve that, and to close their minds to the spiritual part of their nature.
Can you empirically prove the spiritual aspect?
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Sure, the brain may be like a radio receiver, it translates invisible external signals to a form that the five senses can detect. (Actually, I don't think it works that way but it's a useful analogy for those who choose to keep their heads in the sand and ignore the spirit that is so readily apparent to most people.)
Imagination is a powerful function of the brain. Religion merely taps into this and exploits it.
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The phenomenon of consciousness is not understood by science but is explained by religion.
I think a citation is required here concerning science.
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The spirit body ("soul" "ghost in the machine") animates and integrates the myriad intelligent parts that make up the physical body.
Quoting iRobot now?
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Like a hand inside a glove, remove the hand and the glove falls to the ground, loses its ability to move of its own volition, and will eventually disintegrate. The same thing happens not long after the spirit makes its final departure from the physical body. (The spirit is the actual center of consciousness, as those who meditate for lengthy periods of time often discover.)
Like I said - imagination
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Think of that as an hypothesis if you will, that might be more acceptable and might give you some pause to question your faith in your belief that "you" are only a physical body and will cease to exist when that physical tabernacle dies. Science does not support your belief, it is founded only in faith...
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I think science has better definitions for "proof". If they don't know, they simply say so or may offer a hypothesis (unproven)
Consider a person in a coma, most cases report no awareness during the comatose state. Hence death is likely to equal a comatose state rather than a dream in which the brain is providing the graphics, sound and scenario. BTW, dreams occur in the transitional period between deep sleep and waking up, dreams however long the seem only last milliseconds or a few seconds at the most. From personal experience, dreams are triggered by external stimulae.
The brain can be programmed, even the bible states this;
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
Most preachers use this verse to encourage bible study. My proof?
Since I no longer read the buybull daily, the visions and dreams of gawd and xianity stopped.
As for the mind - read these scrips. There is a theme
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Science does not support your belief
