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Old 09-11-2009, 04:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
It is of course just your opinion that "6 day creationism has been discredited" if you are speaking universally and not just among atheists and agnostics. But it's true that religionists would argue about how long a "day" ancient books were referring too, accuracy of translation, etc.
My opinion? Creationism has indeed been discredited for a long time now. It's a myth now and as such mainstream Christianity rejects the literal interpretation of genesis and see it as an allegory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
The "theory of the big bang" is just that a theory, it is not proof of anything.
Yeah it's just a theory just like the theory of gravity and the germ theory but is that a good enough reason to reject whatever theories are inconvenient to your beliefs? You may disagree with me but I find it as reasonable as someone saying "gravity is just a theory" and then jumping off a window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
But it could help explain to the intellect what remains unexplainable without allowing God into the equation.
You still don't get it. The theory of the big bang says nothing about whether a god exists or not. It's hard to put it in laymans terms but at roughly 0.00000000000000000000000000000000006 seconds after the big bang, mathematics break down and our ability to trace further back ends there. Any thoughts on what happened then(whether a god or many gods started it all, whether it's all part of a cyclic universe...ect ect) is pure speculation.

You also seem to assume that the only reason people believe in the big bang is because scientists say so. The theory has evidence going for it and it's accessible enough for anyone interested in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
We're all having an earthly experience and learning together. I continue to maintain that there is a valid and valuable place in our society for both Science and Religion.
Why? The faith based approach has so many faults with it and up to this point the only reason given to try it is wishful thinking.
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Utah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
My opinion? Creationism has indeed been discredited for a long time now. It's a myth now and as such mainstream Christianity rejects the literal interpretation of genesis and see it as an allegory.

Yeah it's just a theory just like the theory of gravity and the germ theory but is that a good enough reason to reject whatever theories are inconvenient to your beliefs? You may disagree with me but I find it as reasonable as someone saying "gravity is just a theory" and then jumping off a window.

You still don't get it. The theory of the big bang says nothing about whether a god exists or not. It's hard to put it in laymans terms but at roughly 0.00000000000000000000000000000000006 seconds after the big bang, mathematics break down and our ability to trace further back ends there. Any thoughts on what happened then(whether a god or many gods started it all, whether it's all part of a cyclic universe...ect ect) is pure speculation.

You also seem to assume that the only reason people believe in the big bang is because scientists say so. The theory has evidence going for it and it's accessible enough for anyone interested in it.

Why? The faith based approach has so many faults with it and up to this point the only reason given to try it is wishful thinking.
I didn't realize that gravity and germs were still just theories. But quite frankly if I believed that there was no Heavenly Parent and Creator of the universe and all things in it, no purpose to life, no reason to keep on learning even after we retire from the need to put bread on the table, and nothing to look forward to after the death of our physical body, not even association with our families and loved ones, I might also believe some of the things you cling to.

But I know there is a God and life after death so I'll pattern my life differently. I wish you the very best with yours...
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
I didn't realize that gravity and germs were still just theories.
Because theory in a scientific context has a different meaning that the layman term. People make a hypothesis and look for evidence. If the evidence supports the hypothesis then it gets status of theory which is the highest status for something in science. It's a common misconception for people who don't understand how science works.


Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
But quite frankly if I believed that there was no Heavenly Parent and Creator of the universe and all things in it, no purpose to life, no reason to keep on learning even after we retire from the need to put bread on the table, and nothing to look forward to after the death of our physical body, not even association with our families and loved ones, I might also believe some of the things you cling to.
save it. We make our purpose in life, you made your own purpose and merely convinced yourself that a higher being gave one to you.

This is just the same type of argument as "people who don't believe in god have no reason to be moral" which is honestly just offensive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
But I know there is a God and life after death so I'll pattern my life differently. I wish you the very best with yours...
Empty assertion.
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Old 09-12-2009, 07:32 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Actually I'm quite ok with you choosing to believe that it is "reasonable and prudent" to blame your brain for having a conscience if that is what you are doing.
'Blame' is hardly the word, but, yes; ascribing reason and logical prudence (Occam's razor) to the brain is what I'm doing.

Quote:
But which of those five senses is it that is providing you with evidence that morality and conscience come from the brain?
Sight; We see how people act

Sound; we hear what people say.

Touch' we sometimes get a poke in the eye.

We pass all these through the brain and come to the conclusion that it comes from us and the evidence is that what controls us is the brain. What do you think controls you? Assuming that you don't believe that God made robots.

Quote:
In this life we do filter at least some of the input we get from intangible sources through our brain. If we didn't do so we might not bring them into awareness.
Well done. You got it right. Now what it comes down to is this. We use the brain to "filter at least some of the input we get" from where? You say intangible sources. That's ok except that you are still trying the rhetorical trick of suggesting that, if we don't know, it's possibly from God. However, avoiding a long discussion, let me suggest that the evidence is that our 'input' is a mix of hormonal reactions and mental instincts, both innate as a result or evolution and conditioned through behavioural habit.

Instinct is for being pushy and selfish as that is what is neccessary for the survival of the individual, family group and tribe. Consideration for others outside the group is something that we have to learn.

Conclusion is that the intangible inputs are Not Nice. Evolution - given, they don't have to be. God given, they should be, wouldn't you think?

Quote:
But hey, I sure didn't trick you into believing in God did I?
No, but you tried and will probably try again. I'd really prefer you to stop trying those theist tricks and use your brain in a better way. You don't have to stop believing in a god but you wouldn't need to use the corpus of theological tricks to support that belief. I think it would be good for you.

I'd like you to honestly consider my points above and ask yourself whether a human - derived morality doesn't make more sense and fit the evidence better than a God - given one.
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Old 09-12-2009, 07:49 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
It is of course just your opinion that "6 day creationism has been discredited" if you are speaking universally and not just among atheists and agnostics. But it's true that religionists would argue about how long a "day" ancient books were referring too, accuracy of translation, etc.

The "theory of the bing (sic) bang" is just that a theory, it is not proof of anything. But it could help explain to the intellect what remains unexplainable without allowing God into the equation.
I read the Big bang article and of course it makes some good points. The real point is that it doesn't matter. It isn't an article of faith in the Darwinist science - religion that the Big bang dunitall. It is a rather speculative theory (in the sense of a hypothesis) based on the evidence for an expanding (local) universe and a supposed echo of a 'big bang'.

It might be wrong. We may discover new evidence that makes the current view change. And so some theists will crow 'science was wrong again; Give it up and say Goddunnit'. As though there were not a bewildering range of disagreements between believers as to what God dun, what he wants and even whether he has a hell or not.

The 6 - day Creation is discredited. the evidence pulls the rug out from under it. Internal, external and logical. Some stoutly reject all evidecne and say it's literal. Other say it is pretty close to the evidence of Geology and palaeontology; you just have to tweak the meanings a bit (a 'day' is a couple of billion years, or whatever is neccessary to fit).

Others say it's symbolic or metaphorical. Others say it's untrue , but that doesn't mean that God is disproved. Which amounts to the same thing really.

Quote:
We're all having an earthly experience and learning together. I continue to maintain that there is a valid and valuable place in our society for both Science and Religion.
I agree. Provided that they are not taught in the same class.
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,370,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Do Atheists rely on Faith? Does Consciousness continue after Death?

Regarding the atheism vs. religion controversy, in my opinion it's all a matter of Faith - with an added dash of Prudence!

It has been my observation on the boards that Christians are fond of writing such things as "God lives" and "Jesus is the Christ." To which and similar statements atheists tend to respond with something like PROVE IT! (Meaning of course, prove it by applying the scientific method and manufactured tools; which cannot be done, at least not with today's tools.) Christians respond with testimonies of spiritual experiences and beliefs derived from intangible sources and studying the books of the bible.

It is of course proven that the physical body must inevitably die. So, the big question for all thinking mortals is, does awareness/consciousness continue after death? If it does, there's a larger than life reason for our being on this planet and God probably does live. If it doesn't, you've only got at best a few years to exist, you don't know when you'll take your last breath, so why not live your life with no thought for possible eternal consequences?
Well, it looks like this thread has had a pretty good run. As usual nothing has been proven to the satisfaction of either 'side' and it's unlikely that anyone has changed their mind about anything. But such is the nature of discussion boards, at least we've all been able to air our own beliefs...


A lot of people probably have their own Einstein quotes and those tend to cut both ways when it comes to religion and atheism.

Here are a few of mine:

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."--Albert Einstein

"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. I choose the latter." --A. Einstein
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:09 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
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Last word on A Einstein. If hadn't clung to an idea of a 'god' that didn't play dice, he'd probably have done some work on quantum mechanics that would have put Relativity in the shade.

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously. (Albert Einstein, Letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946)

The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. (Albert Einstein, The Human Side)

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description .. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism. (Albert Einstein)"

One can quote Einstein ad nauseam. It is beside the point. He is pulled out by theists who want to hold up a 'scientist' who believed in God as some sort of way of confounding atheists.

Why is it always propaganda tricks rather than logic and evidence? Everything I have ever seen by Einstein supports the view that organized religion is rubbish, Personal gods are garbage and the Holy Books are just books.
Discussion of Einstein, his views on religion, science, art and atheism might make an interesting thread, but it cannot be used here to try to support anything but the most agnostic type of theism.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,370,885 times
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Millions upon millions of people throughout the ages have opened their eyes to see and their ears to hear and have borne testimony and witness, as do I that God lives and Jesus is the Christ!


"And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about. And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness; And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God." D&C 76: 19-24

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/19-24#19



-----
Mormons testify of Jesus Christ the Son of God:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,513 posts, read 37,061,236 times
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So in the end this is all it is. Quotes from your book of wishful thinking. I guess quote mining Einstein didn't work that well for you then. Trying to use quotes from anyone regardless of how famous that person is does not bolster your case. So what if Einstein had actually believed in god? How does that prove anything?
You and others need to face the fact that you cannot prove the existence of god or Christ. They exist only in the minds of some people, and that is fine with me, but neither makes his home in my mind or the minds of many like me. You and I travel different paths, but our final destination is exactly the same.
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:51 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,933,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Millions upon millions of people throughout the ages have opened their eyes to see and their ears to hear and have borne testimony and witness, as do I that God lives and Jesus is the Christ!


"And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about. And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness; And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God." D&C 76: 19-24

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/19-24#19



-----
Mormons testify of Jesus Christ the Son of God:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/
Mindless proselytizing. It all just amounts to pushing your flavour of blind faith onto others instead of looking objectively for the truth.
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