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Old 09-10-2009, 11:20 AM
 
168 posts, read 377,727 times
Reputation: 182

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Again this is rediculous. A belief is a belief whether it is positive or negative. If you believe in something you must prove it and if you dont believe that this something exists you dont have to prove it? Again I stated from my research about what the leading scientists have said about the start of the big bang and you instead of acknowledging it bring up the example of the sun . Am I correct or not about our current facts about teh big bang? YES OR NO. You very good at switching subject but not very good at admitting that your wrong my friend.

"Where did this 'intelligent force' come from?" Typical atheist response yet again. Your switching the subject, and you just trapped yourself. If you ask where it comes from it means that you actually believe that it might exist. The seed has been planted. I would suggest that you stay away from that part of the argument my friend.

Again in the last part of your answer you switch subject again. If you wanna debate noahs ark we can do that in another thread. The fact is most rational scientists believe that all 4 natural forces needed fine tuning at the point of the explosion or the universe would fall back into itself.

Do you also believe this yes or no. Your very slippery my friend, but so are weasels. It doesnt make them right.
I await a yes or no answer to my questions which I think you will do a john kerry on me yet again . Kind of like the drunken leader of the atheistic movement christopher hitchens lol

"Why do you keep seeing things that just aren't there? Oh! Sorry, I forgot....that is what theists do isn't it? But to get back to your post...I agree on no such thing. I don't believe in 'miracles'. I was merely pointing out that out of hundreds of millions of people who have visited Lourdes and prayed for a cure for their affliction, the Catholic Church (not me) have acknowledged only 67 'unexplained events'. Please stop reading things that are not there."

Rafius, atheists are the biggest believers in magic. They believe that either the universe always existed (rediculous as everything had to have a starting point,) or it magically appered out of nothing.
This is my depction of an atheist romanicing his sweetheart

"linda how did you like the flowers? Aww steve , they were so sweet, so why did you decide to be so romantic with me? Well honey, i wanted to produce a chemical response of joy within your brain and I also wanted your brains electrical impulses to send a signal all throughout your body that I am your perfect fit" Aww Steve, I love it when you get so deep and romantic. Linda , id say your my soulmate but since we dont have souls, id say your my chemical match "




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Correct.

Nope! If the atheist says "I don't believe gods exist", he is stating his belief and does not make a positive statement regarding the existence or the non-existence of gods. Therefore he bears no 'burden of proof' (BoP) regarding his beliefs. If, on the other hand he were to say " Gods do not exist" or "I know gods do not exist" then he does have the BoP to show that his claim is true.

When the Christian says, "God exists", "the Bible is true", "God speaks to me" etc, then he makes a positive statement and bears the BoP to prove that what he says is true. If he wants to avoid the BoP he must say " I believe that that God exists". In that way he is only stating his beliefs not claiming that something is a fact.

As you can see from the definition you posted. An atheist is someone who has no belief in deities. Believing or not believing something does not subject you to the BoP....it's only when you claim that something is a fact that the hammer falls.

.... Stay away from 'Creation Science' sites my friend. Their arguments for creation will only make you look foolish when you start to post nonsense like "If the sun was just a few hundred miles closer we would all burn up".

Where did this 'intelligent force' come from?

Yeah! Right!!


....from a dude that believes in talking animals, Global floods and every creature on the planet fitting into a small boat!! <shaking head in dis-belief>

Last edited by wallstreeterww; 09-10-2009 at 11:29 AM..
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:37 AM
 
282 posts, read 525,174 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Why do you keep seeing things that just aren't there? Oh! Sorry, I forgot....that is what theists do isn't it? But to get back to your post...I agree on no such thing. I don't believe in 'miracles'. I was merely pointing out that out of hundreds of millions of people who have visited Lourdes and prayed for a cure for their affliction, the Catholic Church (not me) have acknowledged only 67 'unexplained events'. Please stop reading things that are not there.
If you read your ambiguous post you'll see your complaint was not that there were miracles but that the church only made 67 of them 'official'.
So why complain about there only being 67 if you don't believe in any???

Maybe you should put SOMETHING into your posts for it to be there.
Something like rationale for starters.
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:41 AM
 
282 posts, read 525,174 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
"linda how did you like the flowers? Aww steve , they were so sweet, so why did you decide to be so romantic with me? Well honey, i wanted to produce a chemical response of joy within your brain and I also wanted your brains electrical impulses to send a signal all throughout your body that I am your perfect fit" Aww Steve, I love it when you get so deep and romantic. Linda , id say your my soulmate but since we dont have souls, id say your my chemical match "

Not even this really, because atheists see no order or harmony in nature so the whole concept of 'match' wouldn't be there as it's all random. In fact there's no reason to date a female. It could be an ashtray or a wallsocket or a snow shovel.......but then, again, there'd be no need for an ashtray either or a wall socket or a snow shovel if there is not order to the universe. Why contain ashes of a cigarette? why direct and use electricity? Why move snow?

Last edited by pie in ear; 09-10-2009 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:17 PM
 
4,474 posts, read 5,400,151 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
The point about 3,000 years ago is, I grant you, intriguing. However in my case my faith or beliefs are not Sola Scriptura. So the beliefs are not based in the Bible alone.

It also involves 18 centuries of miracles and events. Since at least the eighteenth century a process involving investigation of miracles has been necessary for a saint to be canonized. There's also various Marian appearances, etc. There is no absolute proof, but very few things can be proved absolutely. Many things in life certainly can't be. (Art, love, justice, etc)
18 centuries of miracle and events, all of which can be explained as nartural occurences or debunked outight. If it wasn't for your scriptures, such "miracles" would be attributed to whatever god reigned over that area and peoples.

Your example is hardly proof, sorry.
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:20 PM
 
4,474 posts, read 5,400,151 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallstreeterww View Post
atheism - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary


2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

This is the definition of a pure atheist therefore they believe that there is no god. Many atheists wont face this pure definition, but its the truth and describes their belief perfectly. Therefore, they also have a burden to prove that god doesnt exist. They have no evidence of thsi at all so their belief is a strawman belief. Plus most theoretical physicists know today that during the precise moment of the big bang there needed to be a fine tuning of perfect of the 4 natural laws (gravity, Electromagnetic, strong nuclear and weak nuclear) to the point where if they were off even minutely the universe would collapse back into itself. There needed to be some purposeful force (an intelligent force) needed to fine tune the 4 natural forces during the big bang explosion. Atheists cant deny this and this is what the more intellectual theist debaters talk about now that stops the atheist in his tracks. This shows how rediculous alot of atheists think.
One does not prove a negative.

As Christians believe in something, it is up to them to provide proof.

And feel more than free to supply substantiation for your comment of "most theoretical scientists" being proponents of Intelligent Design.
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:26 PM
 
282 posts, read 525,174 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
One does not prove a negative.

As Christians believe in something, it is up to them to provide proof.

And feel more than free to supply substantiation for your comment of "most theoretical scientists" being proponents of Intelligent Design.
Who is it we need to prove it to?

Do I need to prove Light exists to a blind person or air exists to a corpse?
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:29 PM
 
Location: South Africa
1,317 posts, read 2,051,580 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
And feel more than free to supply substantiation for your comment of "most theoretical scientists" being proponents of Intelligent Design.
Isn't it that list of 700 I guess there are only 701 scientists in teh wurlde
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,807,907 times
Reputation: 2879
If you used the quote function correctly it would much easier to follow the conversation. Much better to quote the part of my post you are replying to rather than quote the whole post and then comment on it in one block. However, I will attempt to unravel the mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wallstreeterww View Post
Again this is rediculous. A belief is a belief whether it is positive or negative. If you believe in something you must prove it and if you dont believe that this something exists you dont have to prove it?
Wrong! Your belief is your belief. You are entitled to hold that belief. There is no onus on you to prove that what you believe is true. 'I believe gods exist' does NOT require proof because it only your belief.

When you say 'I know gods exist' you are making a statement of fact and thus, are required to provide evidence that it is actually true.

It's quite simple.
'Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit'.
'the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges.'

Quote:
Again I stated from my research about what the leading scientists have said about the start of the big bang....
Please provide the link that supports your claim.

Quote:
.... and you instead of acknowledging it bring up the example of the sun .
When I took a selection of your post regarding the start of the bang and put it into a google search, the only sites that came up with such things were creationist/ ID sites. That is why I said you should avoid them....because they make spurious claims such as my comment about the sun.

Quote:
Am I correct or not about our current facts about teh big bang? YES OR NO.
Present your research and I'll make an attempt to tell you. I'm not a scientist but if you post your research then at least it will be there for someone who is a scientist to examine.

Quote:
You very good at switching subject but not very good at admitting that your wrong my friend.
Not at all. Show that I'm wrong and I will have no problem admitting it.

Quote:
"Where did this 'intelligent force' come from?" Typical atheist response yet again. Your switching the subject,...........
How so? Your claim was "There needed to be some purposeful force (an intelligent force)". How is asking you where it came from 'changing the subject'?

.
Quote:
...and you just trapped yourself. If you ask where it comes from it means that you actually believe that it might exist.
Huh?? Can anyone out there explain where he got THAT logic from??

Quote:
Again in the last part of your answer you switch subject again. If you wanna debate noahs ark we can do that in another thread.
Irony goes straight over your head doesn't it? Here, let me explain. Here is what you said:

"This shows how rediculous alot of atheists think."

The 'irony' is that you, a theist, thinks that the thoughts of atheists, which are based on logic and reason, are "ridiculous", yet you have no problem at all believing in supernatural entities that create universes, animals that talk, people being created by 'gods' blowing on a handful of dust, world floods and all the animals on the planet fitting into a small boat and staying there for nearly a year.

Quite clearly, the irony was lost on you.

Quote:
I await a yes or no answer to my questions which I think you will do a john kerry on me yet again .
See above.

Quote:
Rafius, atheists are the biggest believers in magic. They believe that either the universe always existed (rediculous as everything had to have a starting point,)
Fine! So where did your 'Intelligent Designer' start. If everything has to have a starting point then so must he/she/it.

Quote:
.....or it magically appered out of nothing.
No, it's theists that believe that ... their particular deity created everything out of nothing? How can that be if you can't create something out of nothing?

Quote:
This is my depction of an atheist romanicing his sweetheart

"linda how did you like the flowers? Aww steve , they were so sweet, so why did you decide to be so romantic with me? Well honey, i wanted to produce a chemical response of joy within your brain and I also wanted your brains electrical impulses to send a signal all throughout your body that I am your perfect fit" Aww Steve, I love it when you get so deep and romantic. Linda , id say your my soulmate but since we dont have souls, id say your my chemical match "
Don't give up the day job and attempt to write comedy will you!
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:53 PM
 
5,458 posts, read 6,698,343 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallstreeterww View Post
Again this is rediculous. A belief is a belief whether it is positive or negative. If you believe in something you must prove it and if you dont believe that this something exists you dont have to prove it?
No need to prove anything unless you're trying to gain followers for your particular cause. But in general, yeah, "there's no reason to believe" is a perfectly valid reason to not believe something - no positive evidence against a concept is needed if there's no evidence for it in the first place. People do this all the time; it's only with gods that they turn to impossible to meet standards of proof. of non-existence.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:35 PM
 
4,474 posts, read 5,400,151 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by pie in ear View Post
Who is it we need to prove it to?

Do I need to prove Light exists to a blind person or air exists to a corpse?
More non sequitures?

Is "light" at the center of an international religion seeking to gain political dominance?

Is "air" part of the basis for discrimination, oppression, or jsut emrely the foundation of debate arguments?

You constantly claim your Christ figure and your Creator God are "the Truth". So time to put your money where your mouth is.

Prove it.
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