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Unread 06-11-2008, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
3,517 posts, read 2,498,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itrustgod View Post
You Go Spunky!!!! I totally agree with you. God is the creator of ALL things. You just can't argue about somethings. The Bible says when you find them ignorant,you leave them ignorant! And about the incest thing, the law wasn't even established yet, plus if cain and his brothers hadn't taken their sisters, how in the world did all the different ppl come about? I didn't evolve from any monkey!!!!
I'd like to know where that ridiculous saying that creationists always use, 'I didn't come from no monkey,' actually came from. Evolution doesn't say any such thing. Also, I wonder someone is suppose to not argue about some things, or even a single thing so they just form their opinion based on someone's say so.
On the Adam and Eve thing. I think there is an immoral factor. The tree that these supposed people supposedly ate from was the Tree of Knowledge. Before they ate from the tree they couldn't have known the difference between right and wrong. Even if 'god' told them it wouldn't have mattered because the eating the fruit taught them the difference between right and wrong, they wouldn't have have known it was wrong before. And then this 'omnibenevolent' being cast them out of the Garden of Eden to suffer, for something they didn't know was wrong. And also it wasn't just them that is suppose to suffer and pay for the 'transgression', no, it's all humanity forever until the end of days. Assuming Adam and Eve did exist, how does someone today, have anything to do with what a couple of ancestors thousands of years ago did. This reminds me of the mafia and how they'll if someone transgresses against them then they'll hold it against that person's family for generations afterwards.
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Unread 06-11-2008, 11:14 PM
 
1,935 posts, read 2,904,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
On the Adam and Eve thing. I think there is an immoral factor. The tree that these supposed people supposedly ate from was the Tree of Knowledge. Before they ate from the tree they couldn't have known the difference between right and wrong. Even if 'god' told them it wouldn't have mattered because the eating the fruit taught them the difference between right and wrong, they wouldn't have have known it was wrong before. And then this 'omnibenevolent' being cast them out of the Garden of Eden to suffer, for something they didn't know was wrong.
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not the same as knowing right from wrong. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. They had minds and knew how to think and knew right from wrong. What they didn't know was what evil was. They wouldn't have known evil if they had obeyed their father and not eaten from the only, single, solitary tree in the entire garden which they knew they were not supposed to eat from.

They were also very aware of the consequeces of their actions. They were specifically told by God what would happen if they disobeyed. And, from my POV, being kicked out of the garden to live for 900 more years was better than being killed on the spot, as they very well could have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
And also it wasn't just them that is suppose to suffer and pay for the 'transgression', no, it's all humanity forever until the end of days. Assuming Adam and Eve did exist, how does someone today, have anything to do with what a couple of ancestors thousands of years ago did. This reminds me of the mafia and how they'll if someone transgresses against them then they'll hold it against that person's family for generations afterwards.
What we all inherited from our father Adam was a separation from God. Before he disobeyed God, he had a direct connection with God, knew him, walked with him through the Garden and spoke directly to him. In spite of this relationship, he willfullly disobeyed God. Hence, he and his offspring were then separated from God. This manifests itself in our "sinful nature", or what others term "original sin". This means we are spiritually separated from God and have a tendency or desire to do that which is goes against God's wishes for us. You or I or anyone for that matter are not condemned simply because we have a sinful nature. We are condemned because we have, each on our own, committed sin against God in our lives. You or I cannot blame the sin we committed on our own on what Adam did in the Garden. We are each held accountable for our own actions.

The good news is there is a way to have our transgressions blotted out and forgotten. Accepting Jesus as our personal saviour reconnects us spiritually to God. With Jesus as our advocate, we can repent of our sin and be forgiven. We are made new in Him and are then considered a child of God. God provided the way back to Him, through Christ. When we accept salvation, it no longer matters what Adam and Eve did.
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Unread 06-12-2008, 04:38 AM
 
Location: PA
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God put the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" into the garden because he wanted Adam and Eve to live righteously. The only way that one can be righteous is to have something that good and bad, but to choose to do only the good. In other words God gave Adam and Eve one commandment and wanted them to live in right standing with him by choosing to obey him. It was not a test for Adam and Eve. The bible is not clear how much time had elapsed but it could have been many years that Adam and Eve enjoyed living in the garden. They apparently did well until the devil enticed them into sin.

God also after Adam and Eve sinned did not cast them out like rubbish. It says that God who knew what they had done, still called them and talked to them. It says that God made clothing to cover them. God made them garments! And to make garments of skin, an animal had to die. So God performed the first sacrifice and atoned for the sin of Adam and Eve while they were yet sinners. It is written that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So this first sacrifice was the type of what Jesus (God) was going to do. It is written Romans 5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. So God has made a way for mankind at all times to have a renewed relationship with him. Before the crucifiction of Christ they were sacrificing to atone, but after the cross we no longer need to sacrifice because Christ performed the ultimate sacrifice for all, once and for all. Now all we have to do is accept what he did as being sufficient to bring us to God.
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Unread 06-12-2008, 06:25 AM
 
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I keep hearing/reading people having an issue with free will. I for one am happy that I have this gift to make choices. Adam and Eve had the free will to make a decison that would go against the boudaries that God set. They fell for Satan's lie, regardless of how sneaky Satan was, they knew that God told them not to eat from the tree.

People say that if God knows the outcome before it happens then it nullifies free will...citing Satan's rebellion and mankinds disobedience. God has a perfect sense of justice and even more so love. He knew that some humans would disobey, BUT He also knows that there will be some humans who remain faithful and loyal to Him. So with His perfect sense of justice He is letting mankind attempt to rule themselves like Satan says they can...knowing that they can't.

Out of love, He will set matters straight and those faithful ones will be rewarded with everlasting life (as it was intended from the beginning). I think of it like this...Have you ever been to a movie or sporting event and there is that group of people that is just ruining the experience for everyone around them? The ushers/security warn them several times to settle down. Eventually, to maintain order and keep the experience a pleasurable one for the other patrons, that rowdy group of people are removed. This period of time from Adam and Eve until now, has been the period of time when God has been warning humans to shape up or they will be removed...permanently.

On the topic of evolution, one thing I have come to learn is that there are so many different THEORIES of evolution. What I don't understand is how people can be completely offended by the Bible's candid reports that to populate a world, siblings reproduced. Is it easier to swallow that at some point humans mated with apes? Ew! Also, if we evolved from apes, isn't it likely that we mated with siblings...what would have prevented that? BUT if survival of the fittest is true, wouldn't mating with a sibling be advantageous? I guess it just depends on which THEORY of evolution you buy into.

The Bible tells it like it is, the good and bad of human society. When God sets standards he does so too protect humans. We can't confuse the reports of human behavior in the Bible with God condoning behavior.

I hope this makes sense.
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Unread 06-12-2008, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post

On the topic of evolution, one thing I have come to learn is that there are so many different THEORIES of evolution. What I don't understand is how people can be completely offended by the Bible's candid reports that to populate a world, siblings reproduced. Is it easier to swallow that at some point humans mated with apes? Ew! Also, if we evolved from apes, isn't it likely that we mated with siblings...what would have prevented that? BUT if survival of the fittest is true, wouldn't mating with a sibling be advantageous? I guess it just depends on which THEORY of evolution you buy into.
Although I find this a bit off topic I can't help but address it. For one, there is only one Theory of Evolution. There are many "theories" of evolution presented by those on the religious side who try to debunk "theories" of evolution that don't even exist such as the one that you just provided. They're called "strawman arguments".

Is it easy to swallow that humans mated with apes? Well, considering that we are still apes, yes. But, I also see what your point is trying to get at and it is flawed from the perspective of the REAL Theory of Evolution. Take for instance, the English language. We know it has evolved throughout time and we also see different forms of the English language. However, your question is akin to asking who the first English speakers spoke with. It's a non sequitir - it doesn't follow. RATHER, what we might suggest is that with the onset of newer and different words, people incorporated it into their daily conversations. Over time, it grew to be what we currently consider the English language. It's not that much different with biological evolution. The tiny differences over time add up to astonishing change. So, no, nowhere in the REAL Theory of Evolution is it suggested that humans practiced beastiality but I'm still having a hard time getting past the part in the Bible that suggests what I am going to talk about in my next paragraph.

Would mating with a sibling be advantageous? Absolutely not. The reason is because throughout our genetic code (along with other plants and animals) we have dominant and recessive genes. You and I probably carry genes for some of the most debilitating and crippling diseases known to man. However, because they are recessive (meaning we only have "one side" of them) they are not activated upon the conception of a new human. Now, if a brother and sister were to mate, you now have one pair of recessive genes mixed with another set of very similar recessive genes. This can, in turn, make them dominant and create some absolutely horrid results. The mere notion that Cain and Abel (or for that matter Ham and Japheth) could even function as human beings is laughable at best.

Suggested reading: Darwin's Origins of Species and Gregor Mendel's Experiment's on Plant Hybridization. That's about as basic as it gets and that is still to this day what the REAL Theory of Evolution is about.
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Unread 06-12-2008, 07:59 AM
Status: "Trying to thaw" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
20,156 posts, read 13,744,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine View Post
The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis is mythical and immoral. The story shows that it's acceptable to punish people for the sins of others (original sin), death is a suitable punishment for disobedience and approves of incest.

Incest

After Adam and Eve had children, how did they proceed onto the third generation? Their children must have slept with each other, or their own parents.

The same applies to the story of Noah's Ark, Lot and his daughters.

The main problem is biological. Interbreeding two families causes severe retardation, mutation and infertility.

The only biologically correct explanation known is that we evolved slowly from lower animals so that incest was never a problem.

Original Sin and Free Will

Adam and Eve did not know of good and evil. They were innocent. They couldn't have known that the "talking snake" was lying to them. But if God is all knowing, and knew that they would have believed the serpent, why did God not stop the serpent? Why the "test" if He knew the outcome?

If God knows what we will do before it happens, what good is Free Will?

The story is immoral on many counts.
1. Incest.
2. Punishing one person for the actions of another.
3. Misogyny, in Genesis, Eve, in particular, was given immense blame and said to have caused all of womankind to be inferior, naturally inclined to sin.
4. And more importantly, to think humanity came from Adam and Eve is biologically incorrect.

So to those that believe in the Bible and believe it is the absolute truth. How can you base your life in a book in which the very foundation of it is flawed beyond comprehension and morality?


Peace!
This is part of the reason I don't believe in taking the bible literally.

There is a passage about the sons of God marrying the daughters of men so I wonder if there weren't other people. Perhaps Adam and Eve are just the first two to connect with God.

I, personally, don't take everything in the bible literally. The whole creation story reads too much like the Enuma Elish (sp?) which is thousands of years older than the bible. I take the story of adam and eve to simply mean, God created, man falls short and God made a path for redemption.

I spent 10 years stuck on evolution vs. creatioinism then woke up one morning and asked myself a different question. What difference does it make? To my surprise, the answer is none. I really don't care how we got here, how many people God started with, how he made them, etc, etc, etc...How I got here isn't nearly as important as I am here and typing this note discussing this topic.

I thnk when reading bible stories you need to look for the meaning not get hung up on the details. And I also think there are mistakes in the bible. I think the bible is a collection of writings intended to explain God and interpret happenings to have religious meaning. I think you need to look at the whole picture not the details. I really don't care how we got here. We're here.

Evolution, if true, doesn't rule out God. It rules out the story of Adam and Eve being literal. Which it could be. If one believes in creation, one believes that God created things in their mature form. Why not a mature universe? Mature species? And the laws for incest come later. One theory is that they are only needed because of genetic issues. If Adam and Eve were perfect, their children were near perfect and could have been less likely to have issues of inbreeding. Perhaps inbreeding only became an issue as families branched off from the main line and genetic mutations happened.

Who knows? Who cares? Is this really a place to get stuck on religion? Well, it is if you want a literal interpretation of the bible but I've found that Christianity still works without that. (Read The Case for Christ if you haven't. Great logical argument for Christianity).

The truth is anyone could write a book and claim it's the word of God. In fact I believe there are several of them around. You don't take a book literally just because it says it's the word of God. They can't all be. You need to apply some logic here.
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Unread 06-12-2008, 08:02 AM
 
798 posts, read 750,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Although I find this a bit off topic I can't help but address it. For one, there is only one Theory of Evolution. There are many "theories" of evolution presented by those on the religious side who try to debunk "theories" of evolution that don't even exist such as the one that you just provided. They're called "strawman arguments".

Is it easy to swallow that humans mated with apes? Well, considering that we are still apes, yes. But, I also see what your point is trying to get at and it is flawed from the perspective of the REAL Theory of Evolution. Take for instance, the English language. We know it has evolved throughout time and we also see different forms of the English language. However, your question is akin to asking who the first English speakers spoke with. It's a non sequitir - it doesn't follow. RATHER, what we might suggest is that with the onset of newer and different words, people incorporated it into their daily conversations. Over time, it grew to be what we currently consider the English language. It's not that much different with biological evolution. The tiny differences over time add up to astonishing change. So, no, nowhere in the REAL Theory of Evolution is it suggested that humans practiced beastiality but I'm still having a hard time getting past the part in the Bible that suggests what I am going to talk about in my next paragraph.

Would mating with a sibling be advantageous? Absolutely not. The reason is because throughout our genetic code (along with other plants and animals) we have dominant and recessive genes. You and I probably carry genes for some of the most debilitating and crippling diseases known to man. However, because they are recessive (meaning we only have "one side" of them) they are not activated upon the conception of a new human. Now, if a brother and sister were to mate, you now have one pair of recessive genes mixed with another set of very similar recessive genes. This can, in turn, make them dominant and create some absolutely horrid results. The mere notion that Cain and Abel (or for that matter Ham and Japheth) could even function as human beings is laughable at best.

Suggested reading: Darwin's Origins of Species and Gregor Mendel's Experiment's on Plant Hybridization. That's about as basic as it gets and that is still to this day what the REAL Theory of Evolution is about.
I was addressing the comments made by Sanspeur, Itrustgod, and agnostic soldier...

I can't go back and find every post that I have read here, but I'm sure...absolutely positive that people asserting (not people debunking) the theory of evolution have had conflicting views. You are saying that there is only 1 theory of evolution? That all evolutionists are in agreement?

When I take my kids to the zoo, and we peer in at the apes, I find a big difference between us and them. Wow...still apes? I understand your relating evolution to the development of the english language, but without getting into a debate about the scientific evidence...I have not seen any evidence that proves we evolved from a different species. I see apes as a different species. I do not think the account of Adam and Eve is allegorical.

The genetic code itself just solidifies to me intelligent design. Why were Adam and Eve able to procreate without these malformations? They were perfect in the Garden of Eden...no imperfections existed. God commanded them to fill the Earth. After they left the Garden of Eden, they were as close to perfection as any human has been...and they still had the command to fill the Earth. As humans have moved further away from perfection, we are not supposed to reproduce with our siblings.

It makes perfect sense to me. I give credit where credit is due...and God deserves the credit for creating everything. I don't profess to know everything. It just seems as plain as the nose on your face. The Bible and my faith in God provides me with an explanation of where we came from and where we are going.

To each his own...
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Unread 06-12-2008, 08:17 AM
 
798 posts, read 750,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
This is part of the reason I don't believe in taking the bible literally.

There is a passage about the sons of God marrying the daughters of men so I wonder if there weren't other people. Perhaps Adam and Eve are just the first two to connect with God.

I, personally, don't take everything in the bible literally. The whole creation story reads too much like the Enuma Elish (sp?) which is thousands of years older than the bible. I take the story of adam and eve to simply mean, God created, man falls short and God made a path for redemption.

I spent 10 years stuck on evolution vs. creatioinism then woke up one morning and asked myself a different question. What difference does it make? To my surprise, the answer is none. I really don't care how we got here, how many people God started with, how he made them, etc, etc, etc...How I got here isn't nearly as important as I am here and typing this note discussing this topic.

I thnk when reading bible stories you need to look for the meaning not get hung up on the details. And I also think there are mistakes in the bible. I think the bible is a collection of writings intended to explain God and interpret happenings to have religious meaning. I think you need to look at the whole picture not the details. I really don't care how we got here. We're here.

Evolution, if true, doesn't rule out God. It rules out the story of Adam and Eve being literal. Which it could be. If one believes in creation, one believes that God created things in their mature form. Why not a mature universe? Mature species? And the laws for incest come later. One theory is that they are only needed because of genetic issues. If Adam and Eve were perfect, their children were near perfect and could have been less likely to have issues of inbreeding. Perhaps inbreeding only became an issue as families branched off from the main line and genetic mutations happened.

Who knows? Who cares? Is this really a place to get stuck on religion? Well, it is if you want a literal interpretation of the bible but I've found that Christianity still works without that. (Read The Case for Christ if you haven't. Great logical argument for Christianity).

The truth is anyone could write a book and claim it's the word of God. In fact I believe there are several of them around. You don't take a book literally just because it says it's the word of God. They can't all be. You need to apply some logic here.
You are referring to the account in Gen 6 when "The sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men." This account tells of how the rebellious Angels took human form to reproduce with human women.

You make some very good points. I do think it is important to find out what God requires of us...and the Bible is His way of communicating that to us.
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Unread 06-12-2008, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
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Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
I can't go back and find every post that I have read here, but I'm sure...absolutely positive that people asserting (not people debunking) the theory of evolution have had conflicting views. You are saying that there is only 1 theory of evolution? That all evolutionists are in agreement?
Quite honestly, you'll find that most of us who you might call "evolutionists" rarely, if ever, fight amongst ourselves in terms of what the theory supports. I've been doing the evolution bit for well over a year now and the only thing I've seen us correct one another on are miniscule bits of science that may not be understood that well by other posters. And, you know what? Instead of constant infighting amongst ourselves, if we are mistaken, and shown otherwise, than we bite the bullet and realize it. That's the power of science.

While some people do argue over certain aspects such as punctuated equilibrium or gradualism, no one denies that evolution happened. The scientific community, as a whole, does not doubt the theory of evolution. If you don't understand it, that's fine, but don't argue against it if you really don't know how it works. I'm not saying you need to be an expert, but please, don't throw this stuff out here if you haven't even read Origins of Species. That's my main point of contention and that's why I'm constantly left feeling like I need to defend it. People argue against it when they don't understand it. Imagine if people came on here and started talking about the Earth being flat because the Bible says so?! I'm sorry if I came across a little crass but I cannot bear to witness people ruin perfectly good science and that's what they do when they promote things such as that and no response is given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
When I take my kids to the zoo, and we peer in at the apes, I find a big difference between us and them. Wow...still apes?
I have a favor to ask of you. Next time you go to the zoo look at all the signs. You'll see things like Lynx, Cheetah, Polar Bear, etc... Find the sign that says "Apes" for me, ok? And, I'm not talking about a sign that says "Members of the Ape Family" I'm talking about a sign in front of a cage or setting that strictly says "Apes" and there is an animal sitting there. I'll bet you can't do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
I understand your relating evolution to the development of the english language, but without getting into a debate about the scientific evidence...I have not seen any evidence that proves we evolved from a different species. I see apes as a different species.
Again, I hate to sound rude but I really don't think you understand the concept of a species. I'll be more than happy to do scientific evidence with you. I'm patient in that regards. I love to teach but only if the people are willing to listen instead of just throw egregious scientific errors to the wind. That's when I get impatient. I'll sit here and type and type all day long as to what the theory of evolution REALLY is and how it REALLY works if you're willing to listen. I don't have a problem with that. AND, I would love to answer your questions because it is indeed the most genuinely misunderstood theory in all of America. For some reason, the rest of the world seems to "get it" rather well....

If you are genuinely interested and not trying to just get all of us science geeks' panties in a wad than I have absolutely no problem teaching. Really, I don't. I'm not even saying you have to believe it. All I want is for people to actually UNDERSTAND it so that they don't go around lying down misnomers and strawmen about it.

But, no, Apes are not technically classified as a species. I'm sorry to break it to you. There is no separate animal that walks around that we would strictly call an "Ape" and that's why you won't find one at the zoo. You WILL find members of the Ape family (including the Great Ape family of which we are a part of alongside Orangutans).

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
The genetic code itself just solidifies to me intelligent design. Why were Adam and Eve able to procreate without these malformations? They were perfect in the Garden of Eden...no imperfections existed. God commanded them to fill the Earth. After they left the Garden of Eden, they were as close to perfection as any human has been...and they still had the command to fill the Earth. As humans have moved further away from perfection, we are not supposed to reproduce with our siblings.
That is, naturally, the answer I expected from you. It's a faith-based answer and I can respect that. But, from a scientific perspective it is flawed and has no supporting evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
It makes perfect sense to me. I give credit where credit is due...and God deserves the credit for creating everything. I don't profess to know everything. It just seems as plain as the nose on your face. The Bible and my faith in God provides me with an explanation of where we came from and where we are going.

To each his own...
One last thing... I don't see why God would create a world that would lead every scientist worth a darn to come to the realization that things on this planet evolved. It seems very deceptive to me. In fact, I think, that if I were really looking for something truly remarkable... Truly divine... It would be the guided process of evolution from a deity over the course of about 3.5 billion years. That, to me, would speak so much more for the power of a deity than merely "poofing" something into existence.

But, like you said, to each his own...
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Unread 06-12-2008, 09:15 AM
 
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I'm a simple girl (not simple minded), so I like to keep things simple. It is not difficult to understand the theory of evolution...I just don't believe it...it hasn't been proven.
So yes, to each his/her own.

I see you are speaking of apes in the sense of classifying. I on the otherhand oversimplified when I spoke of apes. If classifying humans because of some identifying markers in the ape family is helpful, ok, but it doesn't make it true that humans evolved from apes. It just means that God created others in the ape family the way He did for whatever reason. Our amusement maybe...they are quite entertaining to watch.

I don't believe God is the one who leads people to evolution. I believe that Satan is very real and misleading many innocent people away from God. I find the Bible to be credible. The Bible clearly states the way God made Adam and Eve. Who am I to say it didn't happen that way when the Bible says it did.

All that aside, I've always wondered what the future looks like for those who believe in evolution. With the current state of the world and human society, how do you see things progressing?
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