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Old 06-07-2007, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
253 posts, read 423,519 times
Reputation: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Don't you think you're being a little harsh, or do you remember asking me that once?
Yes, I suppose I was a bit harsh, but so is saying "Jesus will deny you because your religion is full of lies." I know eye for an eye is not the way to live though, ibcwife, I extend a full apology, but I will state that I would very much appreciate it if you would state your opinion in a less condemning way as that would make it much easier for me to live the way Christ teaches.
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:21 AM
 
740 posts, read 1,279,887 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by maniac View Post
Yes, I suppose I was a bit harsh, but so is saying "Jesus will deny you because your religion is full of lies." I know eye for an eye is not the way to live though, ibcwife, I extend a full apology, but I will state that I would very much appreciate it if you would state your opinion in a less condemning way as that would make it much easier for me to live the way Christ teaches.
Ok... I have a question. Since the book of mormon is supposed to be "the most correct of any book on earth" why were their so many changes..? Why were their so many sections copied from the King James version of the Bible? When supposedly, the book of mormon predates the King James Version of the Bible by 1000 years.


Not only is there no archaeological evidence for a language such as "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics," there is no archaeological support for lands such as the "land of Moron," which you find in Ether 7:6. Nor is there any archaeological evidence to buttress the notion that Jaredites, Nephites, Lamanites all migrated from Israel to the Americas.

"Benjamin" was changed to "Mosiah" after Mormon leaders finally realized that in the chronology of the Book of Mormon King Benjamin had already died so he would have been hard pressed to "interpret" the engravings mentioned in Mosiah 21:28. Perhaps the greatest crack in the credibility of the Book of Mormon is that whole sections were derived directly from the King James Version of the Bible and that despite the fact that according to Mormon chronology, the Book of Mormon predates the King James Version by more than a thousand years.
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:24 AM
 
740 posts, read 1,279,887 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Look, I have discussed the changes to the Book of Mormon already. The changes were not doctrinal. They were changes to make the text conform to modern gramatical standards. The Bible has been changed so many times everyone has lost count. Next, for heaven's sake, ibcwife, tell me all the words in the Bible are spelled correctly, and I will pull out a few thousand to show you are wrong. No, the witnesses were not all of Joseph's family. In fact some fell away from the Church, but none of them ever denied what they had testified to.

Finally, because I am tired of repeatedly going over the same ground, If you are alive when his ugly head arises, you will know the anti-christ. If you think that Joseph or any of the current leadership fits the mold of the anti-christ, then you really don't know your scriptures very well.

The Three Witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer, all initially describe their experience with the angel and the plates as subjective and visionary rather than objective and concrete. Their elaborations on the encounter, their departure from the LDS Church, as well as other events in their lives, raise questions about their level of discernment and their credibility as witnesses.

The testimony of the Eight Witnesses is more objective but is plagued by its own set of problems. All eight had close personal ties to Joseph Smith's family — four were David Whitmer's brothers, a fifth was married to a Whitmer sister, and Joseph's father and two brothers made up the remaining three. These close ties to Joseph Smith, coupled with discrepancies between the witnesses' published Book of Mormon statement and later personal statements, as well as the question of coercion on the part of Joseph Smith, all raise questions of their credibility as well.

The Witnesses & the Historical Record

For some people, the fact that eleven men would sign their names to a written statement and never denounce the Book of Mormon is sufficient evidence for believing the Book of Mormon is of divine origin. But is the testimony of these eleven men a solid foundation for faith in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? A careful investigation reveals there are a number of historical details which raise questions about the objectivity and credibility of these witnesses. To gain an objective perspective on the reliability of the witnesses and the strength of their testimony, three criteria will be used to evaluate the historical facts:

Were they discerning men of sound judgment not easily swayed by tales of the fantastic or supernatural?
Were they without conflict of interest, and were their characters and reputations unquestioned?
Did their later statements regarding the plates ever vary, deviate or detract from their original statements?
What Makes a Credible Witness?

In every period of history there are those individuals who tend to be credulous and suggestible. Such people desire to be a part of the fantastic or supernatural, and their very desire leaves them vulnerable to deception or manipulation. Research done on the period of American history from the late 1700s to early 1800s shows this time period to be no exception. Like today, a certain segment of the population desired and pursued subjective and mystical experiences in a quest for spiritual significance. Tales of spirit apparitions, buried treasure and the ability to see things with "spiritual eyes" that cannot be confirmed with the physical senses, were "reality" for those who lived through them. Experiences perceived with "second sight" were taken seriously and held as undeniable fact. But should testimony of this nature be presented as undeniable empirical evidence?

In an article published in the American Quarterly, Alan Taylor cites many incidents where 18th and 19th century treasure seekers claimed to have seen spirits and handled treasure that sank from their grasp. Alan Taylor in his article "The Early Republic's Supernatural Economy: Treasure Seeking in the American Northeast, 1780-1830" comments:

These supernatural encounters were very "real" to those who experienced them. Childhood exposure to treasure tales and their careful performance of elaborate ceremonies at the digging site created a nervous expectation to see the extraordinary. (Taylor 1986, 14)

Magic circles, incantantions, and a strict code of silence once the digging commenced were all part of the ceremony. Any spoken word would break the spell and the whole night's efforts be lost. Taylor gives several examples including the following:

In 1814 a party of Rochester, New York treasure seekers barely escaped with their lives when the conducter exclaimed, 'Damn me, I've found it!' With that, a local newspaper recorded, 'the charm was broken! — the scream of demons — the chattering of spirits — and hissing of serpents rent the air, and the treasure moved.' (Ibid, p. 12)

While many of the fantastic descriptions are viewed as folklore and tall tales, Taylor cites evidence that does not fit a simple explanation of fraud. Treasure seekers often impressed contemporary audiences with their sincerity and "utter conviction that their supernatural encounters had been real. Waitsfield, Vermont's nineteenth-century chronicler wrote of a local treasure seeker, 'The most ridiculous part of this matter, is the fact well attested, that Mr. Savage believed all this, as long as he lived, and was never ridiculed out of it.'" (Taylor 1986, p. 13)

In the years immediately preceding any mention of the gold plates and the Book of Mormon, both Joseph Smith, Jr., and his father, Joseph Sr., were money diggers like those described above. They openly shared their supernatural abilities to see treasure and other things not visible to the natural eye. William Stafford, a neighbor and fellow treasure seeker gave the following account:

Joseph, Jr., could see, by placing a stone of singular appearance in his hat, in such a manner as to exclude all light; at which time they pretended he could see all things within and under the earth, — that he could see within the above mentioned caves, large gold bars and silver plates — that he could also discover the spirits in whose charge these treasures were, clothed in ancient dress."[1]


It is evident the Smith's believed what Joseph saw in his stone for they made attempts to retrieve this treasure. In the same affidavit Stafford recalled one time the made a circle on the ground and put hazel sticks around the circle to keep off evil spirits. A steel rod was added to the center of the circle, a trench dug and then "the older Smith consulted his son who had been 'looking in his stone and watching the motions of the evil spirit.'" However, they had made a mistake in how they started the whole operation, otherwise they would have gotten the money (Joseph Smith's New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, SLC, Signature Books, 1990, pp. 143-145).

As noted earlier, money digging and treasure seeking were generally accompanied by anticipation of the supernatural. Participants were emotionally excited and desired that something extraordinary would happen. We find this same pattern of anticipatory desire preceding the experience of the Three Witnesses.

While Joseph Smith was dictating the Book of Mormon to Oliver Cowdery, he read off a section that declared there would be three special witnesses who would be allowed to see the plates and then "bear witness" to the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith's History of the Church states,

Almost immediately after we had made this discovery, it occurred to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and the aforementioned Martin Harris (who had come to inquire after our progress in the work) that they would have me inquire of the Lord to know if they might not obtain of him the privilege to be these three special witnesses; and finally they became so very solicitous, and urged me so much to inquire that at length I complied (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 52-53).

Joseph then produced a revelation for Oliver, David and Martin which stated that if they relied upon God's word and did so with a full purpose of heart they would "have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim & Thummim, ... and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi" (Ibid, p. 53). It would only be by their faith that they would be able to obtain a view of them.

This is very convenient. Joseph dictates the part of the Book of Mormon that mentions three special witnesses while all three are there with him. These men beg Joseph to ask God if maybe they aren't the ones. When he finally gives in, Joseph immediately gets a revelation that says, if they have faith, rely on God's word and have full purpose of heart, they will see not only the plates but numerous other wonderful things.

So they go to the woods and first spend a prolonged time in prayer. Nothing happens. They pray more. Nothing happens. Martin Harris volunteers to leave the group because he senses the others think he was the reason nothing was happening. As soon as Harris leaves, the others claim to see the angel and plates, though there is no mention of any of the other items that had been promised. According to Joseph Smith's history, Joseph then goes to find Harris, and while praying together, Harris cries out, "Tis enough, tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have beheld;" (Ibid, p. 55). It becomes clear that all three of these men desired this prestigious position of being the special chosen witnesses. They were emotionally primed by what Joseph claimed to translate and then by the revelation Joseph gave that emphasized their need for faith. The vision only came to Oliver and David after a prolonged time in prayer and the departure of Martin Harris.

It would appear from this account and Doctrine & Covenants 17, that the idea of three witnesses to the Book of Mormon is a new discovery made by Joseph and Oliver in June of 1829 while producing the Book of Mormon. Yet, three months earlier in March of 1829, Joseph received a revelation for Martin Harris which stated that Joseph had the gift to translate the Book of Mormon but that God would grant him no other gift, and that God would call and ordain three special witnesses to whom God would give supernatural power to "behold and view these things as they are." The revelation went on to say that no one else but the three would have the power to receive this same testimony. It is possible that Joseph did not refer back to this March 1829 revelation regarding the witnesses because by June he already had in mind to add eight additional witnesses besides Cowdery, Whitmer and Harris. Adding additional witnesses would go against the earlier revelation that there would be three and only three witnesses and that Joseph should not show the gold plates to anyone else (D&C 5:3, 12-14).

There is another conflict with the story as recorded by Joseph in his official history. Supposedly all three men saw the angel and gold plates the same day. But, Harris provided this information in an interview with Anthony Metcalf:

I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. Sometimes the plates would be on a table in the room in which Smith did the translating, covered over with a cloth. I was told by Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at them, and I believed it. When the time came for the three witnesses to see the plates, Joseph Smith, myself, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, went into the woods to pray. When they had engaged in prayer, they failed at the time to see the plates or the angel who should have been on hand to exhibit them. They all believed it was because I was not good enough, or in other words, not sufficiently sanctified. I withdrew. As soon as I had gone away, the three others saw the angel and the plates. In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates. (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71.)

Author's note: The information on the Book of Mormon witnesses in this article can now also be found in books written by active LDS authors. For example, see chapter 6 "Witnesses to the Golden Plates" in Grant H. Palmer's book titled, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, (Signature Books, SLC, 2002, pp. 175-213). Palmer is an LDS seminary teacher and three-time director of LDS Institutes of Religion in California and Utah. His analysis of the witnesses' experience mirror to a large degree those of this article.

Last edited by ibcwife; 06-08-2007 at 05:33 AM..
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Glendive, MT
7,392 posts, read 8,189,384 times
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I've been away for a bit...all last week and Memorial Day too....so I'll read to catch up, but I just wanted to say, I thought we'd done this all ready. To me, the defining factor of whether one is Christian or not is belief that Christ is the Saviour. For a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the answer would be a resounding "YES!!!".
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 127,776 times
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Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Well, I guess I know what you thought the factual information was worth.
Sorry, but i just don't find it factual. I can't remember any details now, but read a book years ago that poked holes in Mormonism that were large enough to drive an 18-wheeler through. No offense, but it's all too far fetched for me, and doesnt line up with the real Word of God-the Bible.
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:51 AM
 
1,125 posts, read 2,365,115 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollysmiles View Post
I've been away for a bit...all last week and Memorial Day too....so I'll read to catch up, but I just wanted to say, I thought we'd done this all ready. To me, the defining factor of whether one is Christian or not is belief that Christ is the Saviour. For a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the answer would be a resounding "YES!!!".

Actually, Molly, I am not going to discuss this point anymore. In fact, after discourse with some of these folks, who claim to be Christian, I don't think I want to be a Christian.
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:54 AM
 
1,125 posts, read 2,365,115 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Sorry, but i just don't find it factual. I can't remember any details now, but read a book years ago that poked holes in Mormonism that were large enough to drive an 18-wheeler through. No offense, but it's all too far fetched for me, and doesnt line up with the real Word of God-the Bible.
Oh, I understand. I read books everyday, and I can remember the details, which prove the theory of evolution.
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:58 AM
 
1,125 posts, read 2,365,115 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibcwife View Post
The Three Witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer, all initially describe their experience with the angel and the plates as subjective and visionary rather than objective and concrete. Their elaborations on the encounter, their departure from the LDS Church, as well as other events in their lives, raise questions about their level of discernment and their credibility as witnesses.

The testimony of the Eight Witnesses is more objective but is plagued by its own set of problems. All eight had close personal ties to Joseph Smith's family — four were David Whitmer's brothers, a fifth was married to a Whitmer sister, and Joseph's father and two brothers made up the remaining three. These close ties to Joseph Smith, coupled with discrepancies between the witnesses' published Book of Mormon statement and later personal statements, as well as the question of coercion on the part of Joseph Smith, all raise questions of their credibility as well.

The Witnesses & the Historical Record

For some people, the fact that eleven men would sign their names to a written statement and never denounce the Book of Mormon is sufficient evidence for believing the Book of Mormon is of divine origin. But is the testimony of these eleven men a solid foundation for faith in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? A careful investigation reveals there are a number of historical details which raise questions about the objectivity and credibility of these witnesses. To gain an objective perspective on the reliability of the witnesses and the strength of their testimony, three criteria will be used to evaluate the historical facts:

Were they discerning men of sound judgment not easily swayed by tales of the fantastic or supernatural?
Were they without conflict of interest, and were their characters and reputations unquestioned?
Did their later statements regarding the plates ever vary, deviate or detract from their original statements?
What Makes a Credible Witness?

In every period of history there are those individuals who tend to be credulous and suggestible. Such people desire to be a part of the fantastic or supernatural, and their very desire leaves them vulnerable to deception or manipulation. Research done on the period of American history from the late 1700s to early 1800s shows this time period to be no exception. Like today, a certain segment of the population desired and pursued subjective and mystical experiences in a quest for spiritual significance. Tales of spirit apparitions, buried treasure and the ability to see things with "spiritual eyes" that cannot be confirmed with the physical senses, were "reality" for those who lived through them. Experiences perceived with "second sight" were taken seriously and held as undeniable fact. But should testimony of this nature be presented as undeniable empirical evidence?

In an article published in the American Quarterly, Alan Taylor cites many incidents where 18th and 19th century treasure seekers claimed to have seen spirits and handled treasure that sank from their grasp. Alan Taylor in his article "The Early Republic's Supernatural Economy: Treasure Seeking in the American Northeast, 1780-1830" comments:

These supernatural encounters were very "real" to those who experienced them. Childhood exposure to treasure tales and their careful performance of elaborate ceremonies at the digging site created a nervous expectation to see the extraordinary. (Taylor 1986, 14)

Magic circles, incantantions, and a strict code of silence once the digging commenced were all part of the ceremony. Any spoken word would break the spell and the whole night's efforts be lost. Taylor gives several examples including the following:

In 1814 a party of Rochester, New York treasure seekers barely escaped with their lives when the conducter exclaimed, 'Damn me, I've found it!' With that, a local newspaper recorded, 'the charm was broken! — the scream of demons — the chattering of spirits — and hissing of serpents rent the air, and the treasure moved.' (Ibid, p. 12)

While many of the fantastic descriptions are viewed as folklore and tall tales, Taylor cites evidence that does not fit a simple explanation of fraud. Treasure seekers often impressed contemporary audiences with their sincerity and "utter conviction that their supernatural encounters had been real. Waitsfield, Vermont's nineteenth-century chronicler wrote of a local treasure seeker, 'The most ridiculous part of this matter, is the fact well attested, that Mr. Savage believed all this, as long as he lived, and was never ridiculed out of it.'" (Taylor 1986, p. 13)

In the years immediately preceding any mention of the gold plates and the Book of Mormon, both Joseph Smith, Jr., and his father, Joseph Sr., were money diggers like those described above. They openly shared their supernatural abilities to see treasure and other things not visible to the natural eye. William Stafford, a neighbor and fellow treasure seeker gave the following account:

Joseph, Jr., could see, by placing a stone of singular appearance in his hat, in such a manner as to exclude all light; at which time they pretended he could see all things within and under the earth, — that he could see within the above mentioned caves, large gold bars and silver plates — that he could also discover the spirits in whose charge these treasures were, clothed in ancient dress."[1]


It is evident the Smith's believed what Joseph saw in his stone for they made attempts to retrieve this treasure. In the same affidavit Stafford recalled one time the made a circle on the ground and put hazel sticks around the circle to keep off evil spirits. A steel rod was added to the center of the circle, a trench dug and then "the older Smith consulted his son who had been 'looking in his stone and watching the motions of the evil spirit.'" However, they had made a mistake in how they started the whole operation, otherwise they would have gotten the money (Joseph Smith's New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, SLC, Signature Books, 1990, pp. 143-145).

As noted earlier, money digging and treasure seeking were generally accompanied by anticipation of the supernatural. Participants were emotionally excited and desired that something extraordinary would happen. We find this same pattern of anticipatory desire preceding the experience of the Three Witnesses.

While Joseph Smith was dictating the Book of Mormon to Oliver Cowdery, he read off a section that declared there would be three special witnesses who would be allowed to see the plates and then "bear witness" to the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith's History of the Church states,

Almost immediately after we had made this discovery, it occurred to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and the aforementioned Martin Harris (who had come to inquire after our progress in the work) that they would have me inquire of the Lord to know if they might not obtain of him the privilege to be these three special witnesses; and finally they became so very solicitous, and urged me so much to inquire that at length I complied (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 52-53).

Joseph then produced a revelation for Oliver, David and Martin which stated that if they relied upon God's word and did so with a full purpose of heart they would "have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim & Thummim, ... and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi" (Ibid, p. 53). It would only be by their faith that they would be able to obtain a view of them.

This is very convenient. Joseph dictates the part of the Book of Mormon that mentions three special witnesses while all three are there with him. These men beg Joseph to ask God if maybe they aren't the ones. When he finally gives in, Joseph immediately gets a revelation that says, if they have faith, rely on God's word and have full purpose of heart, they will see not only the plates but numerous other wonderful things.

So they go to the woods and first spend a prolonged time in prayer. Nothing happens. They pray more. Nothing happens. Martin Harris volunteers to leave the group because he senses the others think he was the reason nothing was happening. As soon as Harris leaves, the others claim to see the angel and plates, though there is no mention of any of the other items that had been promised. According to Joseph Smith's history, Joseph then goes to find Harris, and while praying together, Harris cries out, "Tis enough, tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have beheld;" (Ibid, p. 55). It becomes clear that all three of these men desired this prestigious position of being the special chosen witnesses. They were emotionally primed by what Joseph claimed to translate and then by the revelation Joseph gave that emphasized their need for faith. The vision only came to Oliver and David after a prolonged time in prayer and the departure of Martin Harris.

It would appear from this account and Doctrine & Covenants 17, that the idea of three witnesses to the Book of Mormon is a new discovery made by Joseph and Oliver in June of 1829 while producing the Book of Mormon. Yet, three months earlier in March of 1829, Joseph received a revelation for Martin Harris which stated that Joseph had the gift to translate the Book of Mormon but that God would grant him no other gift, and that God would call and ordain three special witnesses to whom God would give supernatural power to "behold and view these things as they are." The revelation went on to say that no one else but the three would have the power to receive this same testimony. It is possible that Joseph did not refer back to this March 1829 revelation regarding the witnesses because by June he already had in mind to add eight additional witnesses besides Cowdery, Whitmer and Harris. Adding additional witnesses would go against the earlier revelation that there would be three and only three witnesses and that Joseph should not show the gold plates to anyone else (D&C 5:3, 12-14).

There is another conflict with the story as recorded by Joseph in his official history. Supposedly all three men saw the angel and gold plates the same day. But, Harris provided this information in an interview with Anthony Metcalf:

I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. Sometimes the plates would be on a table in the room in which Smith did the translating, covered over with a cloth. I was told by Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at them, and I believed it. When the time came for the three witnesses to see the plates, Joseph Smith, myself, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, went into the woods to pray. When they had engaged in prayer, they failed at the time to see the plates or the angel who should have been on hand to exhibit them. They all believed it was because I was not good enough, or in other words, not sufficiently sanctified. I withdrew. As soon as I had gone away, the three others saw the angel and the plates. In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates. (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71.)

Author's note: The information on the Book of Mormon witnesses in this article can now also be found in books written by active LDS authors. For example, see chapter 6 "Witnesses to the Golden Plates" in Grant H. Palmer's book titled, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, (Signature Books, SLC, 2002, pp. 175-213). Palmer is an LDS seminary teacher and three-time director of LDS Institutes of Religion in California and Utah. His analysis of the witnesses' experience mirror to a large degree those of this article.
OK, you win IBCWIFE, save me.
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Old 06-08-2007, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 127,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Oh, I understand. I read books everyday, and I can remember the details, which prove the theory of evolution.
Huh?
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Old 06-08-2007, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
1,289 posts, read 1,982,942 times
Reputation: 647
Ok, I have a simple question: If I accept you as a christian, will you accept me as a mormon? Will you accept me as a mormon if I reject Joseph Smith and all the LDS prophets as being prophets of God. If I do not believe in the Book of Mormon or the LDS Scriptures and all the temple ceremonies, will you accept me as a mormon? Obviously, you would have to say no.

Similarly, when mormonism denies much of the Bible or considers much of it incorrect, as well as most Christian doctrine, do you think that Biblical christians will accept mormons as christians? Probably not. Unfortunately, this is the case and will be for a very long time.

For many years after its inception, the Mormon church shunned mainstream christianity because it considered them all wrong. It is a recent development that the mormon church wants to include itself into christian ranks.

As seen by many of the posts here, mormon and christian doctrine differ in a lot of ways. I don't think they will ever reconcile themselves because of this. All we can hope for is to try and maintain a Christ-like attitude with one another. That too will be difficult as most of us have very strong opinions one way or the other, again as seen by the posts here. God bless all.
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