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Actually, there are sworn declarations of witnesses who saw and touched the plates. Oliver Cowdery, who was one of the original scribes, fell away from the Church for a number of years and practiced law. While inactive, Oliver was confronted in open court by another attorney regarding his early association with the Church. Oliver swore in open court that he had conversed with ancient prophets during visions and had seen and handled the plates. Additionally, he openly declared he could not deny what he had experienced lest he be accused of denying God.
None of this is LDS lore; it is all a matter of public record. Take if for what you think it’s worth.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
3 Don't be fooled by what they say.For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed – the one who brings destruction. F5 4 He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God. 5 Don't you remember that I told you this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. 7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. 8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 This evil man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of wicked deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse to believe the truth that would save them. 11 So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for not believing the truth and for enjoying the evil they do.
Yes, yes, this all nice scripture about the anti-christ. No one in the LDS Church is claiming to be anything but mortal, including the President of the Church.
Yes, yes, this all nice scripture about the anti-christ. No one in the LDS Church is claiming to be anything but mortal, including the President of the Church.
I am not saying that they are not moral people. Infact... I have stated that mormons are very moral people (they are trying to get into heaven by good deeds..). But you are following a false prophet and a false doctorine. The early founders also said that the book of mormon was the most correct book on earth. And that every letter was given to JS by God. If you would like to talk about mormon history.. lets talk about how many times the book of mormon has had to be edited!? Because God doesn't know how to spell? How about the errors in the first book of mormon? Can you account for those?
There were three witnesses, plus another eight if I understand your history. The eight were members of JS's family. Oliver Cowdery, was boarding with JS'S parents... at the time. How were the other two connected to the family? Do you think if they were actually the anti-christ they would come right out and say it? Do you think that the anti-christ wouldn't lie....even under oath? Afterall, satan came to steal kill and destroy.. Serg... I am not arguing with you for the sake of arguing... I truly have a heart for those who are following false teachers. It makes me very sad to know that one day we will stand before Christ... and I can't imagine anyone who thinks they are on their way to heaven.. hearing those dreadful words... "depart from me... I never knew you".
I am not saying that they are not moral people. Infact... I have stated that mormons are very moral people (they are trying to get into heaven by good deeds..). But you are following a false prophet and a false doctorine. The early founders also said that the book of mormon was the most correct book on earth. And that every letter was given to JS by God. If you would like to talk about mormon history.. lets talk about how many times the book of mormon has had to be edited!? Because God doesn't know how to spell? How about the errors in the first book of mormon? Can you account for those?
There were three witnesses, plus another eight if I understand your history. The eight were members of JS's family. Oliver Cowdery, was boarding with JS'S parents... at the time. How were the other two connected to the family? Do you think if they were actually the anti-christ they would come right out and say it? Do you think that the anti-christ wouldn't lie? Afterall, satan came to steal kill and destroy..
Look, I have discussed the changes to the Book of Mormon already. The changes were not doctrinal. They were changes to make the text conform to modern gramatical standards. The Bible has been changed so many times everyone has lost count. Next, for heaven's sake, ibcwife, tell me all the words in the Bible are spelled correctly, and I will pull out a few thousand to show you are wrong. No, the witnesses were not all of Joseph's family. In fact some fell away from the Church, but none of them ever denied what they had testified to.
Finally, because I am tired of repeatedly going over the same ground, If you are alive when his ugly head arises, you will know the anti-christ. If you think that Joseph or any of the current leadership fits the mold of the anti-christ, then you really don't know your scriptures very well.
Ok then.. Since God cast satan out of heaven because of this.... Is it possible that you are worshiping another god if you believe this way? Maybe the god of this world? satan? It just seems to me that God made it perfectly clear that this kind of thinking was not going to be tolerated.... Infact, punishment was swift and harsh for the angel above all angels? Do you think that it is going to be any better for you? I am just asking.. I don't know how you could justify your religion if that is the case.
I think the Sergeant gave a much more comprehensive answer than I could.
I am not saying that they are not moral people. Infact... I have stated that mormons are very moral people (they are trying to get into heaven by good deeds..).
I am not saying that they are not moral people. Infact... I have stated that mormons are very moral people (they are trying to get into heaven by good deeds..). But you are following a false prophet and a false doctorine. The early founders also said that the book of mormon was the most correct book on earth. And that every letter was given to JS by God. If you would like to talk about mormon history.. lets talk about how many times the book of mormon has had to be edited!? Because God doesn't know how to spell? How about the errors in the first book of mormon? Can you account for those?
There were three witnesses, plus another eight if I understand your history. The eight were members of JS's family. Oliver Cowdery, was boarding with JS'S parents... at the time. How were the other two connected to the family? Do you think if they were actually the anti-christ they would come right out and say it? Do you think that the anti-christ wouldn't lie....even under oath? Afterall, satan came to steal kill and destroy.. Serg... I am not arguing with you for the sake of arguing... I truly have a heart for those who are following false teachers. It makes me very sad to know that one day we will stand before Christ... and I can't imagine anyone who thinks they are on their way to heaven.. hearing those dreadful words... "depart from me... I never knew you".
You seem to have your facts mixed up on how the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph had the Gold Plates and the Urim and Thumim, he read the plates through the Urim and Thumim out loud, Joseph didn't actually do any of the writing, just the traslating, so it was written down by a man. Thus there were some spelling errors and those are things that have been changed in the Book of Mormon.
So who makes you the judge as to who is right and who is wrong anyways? I'm going to come out and say, there is nothing that gets on my nerves more than somebody who comes out and says that somebody else's opinion or belief is wrong. I just hate it when people state their opinions like they are facts. I have no problem with you saying you think there are holes in our religion and pointing them out, waiting for an explination, but telling somebody that Christ is going to say to them "Depart from me... I never knew you" seems completely judgemental and un-Christian-like to me, don't you have your own skin to worry about?
I don't usually quote scripture, but why not? "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye" (Matt. 7:3-5).
I truly have a heart for those who are following false teachers. It makes me very sad to know that one day we will stand before Christ... and I can't imagine anyone who thinks they are on their way to heaven...
We feel the same way. That is why our chrurch sends young men and women to serve missions. Don't worry about us, we all know we are fine. We want to give others the opportunity to find out for themselves if what our church believes is true. I know what you and I believe are vastly different. I also know that in the end God will know the intentions of our hearts and judge us accordingly.
LORI
So who makes you the judge as to who is right and who is wrong anyways? I'm going to come out and say, there is nothing that gets on my nerves more than somebody who comes out and says that somebody else's opinion or belief is wrong. I just hate it when people state their opinions like they are facts. I have no problem with you saying you think there are holes in our religion and pointing them out, waiting for an explination, but telling somebody that Christ is going to say to them "Depart from me... I never knew you" seems completely judgemental and un-Christian-like to me, don't you have your own skin to worry about?
Don't you think you're being a little harsh, or do you remember asking me that once?
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