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You don't think goodness could exist without evil?
Moreover, if evil is necessary for the production and maintenance of good, why did God wait to create evil? Why did evil not exist concomitantly with God as long as He had existed?
And by the way, how does one "create" evil? That's too mystical to even cogitate...
As far as we know God always had knowledge of good and evil. Thus the tree of knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden so man would partake, and eventually understand both so man could become good.
How can one know what good is without knowing the opposite? Also, be careful to understand - knowledge of evil does not mean you are evil.
God brought the knowledge of good and evil into the creation at the beginning.
RE: "creating evil", I believe some translations have it meaning "causing trouble" (this is just off the top of my head, can't remember where I read that). The bible gives many examples: floods, droughts, plagues, wars, famine, etc. God is in control of the good and the bad.
It seems bad to us right now, because thats all we know. But ultimately it will be for our benefit. Of course you might not see it that way if you are thinking that are existence ends with this earthly life.
FYI What I am telling you here is NOT what most of mainstream Christianity teaches. The mainstream says "Satan" does all the bad stuff. But the mainstream is sadly mistaken and have in actuality made Satan almost equal to God. Read bible-truths.com for more. God is in control, and God has put us in this mess of an earth for a very good purpose.
I repeat: "The universe has no boss." - Alan Watts
The universe, does not have, and does not need, some Control Freak holding the reins very tightly, always watching everyone vigilantly, controlling the clockwork precisely, and fretting about who worships him and who doesn't...
The universe is eternal, uncreated, and self-existent. As such, it has no boss and has no need of a boss. It is the self-employed habitat of Existence, which cannot be created...
Read Alan Watts!
That is your opinion. God is in control whether you like it or not. And no, He's not fretting about who is worshiping him and who isn't. In fact his plan is the majority of people won't believe in nor worship him in this life.
I will put Alan Watts on my "things to look into reading" list.
If you want the alternative viewpoint, read some of the articles I posted.
Reply to my survey from a Mike555 (or Mike55?) in the Christianity forum:
Regarding why God created the universe, no speculation is necessary. Everything that God does is for His pleasure and for his glory. It was for His pleasure that He created both the universe and the angels and man with the purpose of having a relationship with His creation. He was not lonely as some people erroneously assume, but rather it simply satisfied Him to do so. God is a creative God.
Regarding when, 'In the beginning is not really accurate. It is better translated as ' In a beginning which was not a beginning'. In other words, in the datelessness of eternity past.
The Bible is God's message to man concerning man, and as such contains information that God chose to communicate to man. God did not deem the things concerning eternity past to be neccessary for us to know at this point. We will learn all about it when we are in the presence of God. That applies of course only to those who have believed in Christ for salvation.
Not surprisingly, Mike doesn't quote any scriptures to support his thoughts. He says no speculation is needed, then he speculates rampantly. Typical, rampaging Christian, who is forced to speculate because the biblical support just isn't there...
Let's excoriate and eviscerate this guy!! (-:
Mike555,
I hope you read this.
I apologize for that harsh sentence: "Let's excoriate and eviscerate this guy." Bad wording by me. Not nice at all. I am sorry. It was figurative, but I still should not have expressed it that way.
I can certainly understand why you love North Carolina! Absolutely gorgeous scenery there. Very nice and friendly people too.
Ii do telephone sales for a living, currently (not my choice of a profession, believe you me!). I am always delighted when I call a customer in Kentucky or North Carolina. Friendliest people in the United States! Very polite. Virginia people are the same way. People in those three states actually listen to the entire presentation, instead of cutting you off after a few words. I wish everyone was as nice as North Carolinians, Kentuckians, and Virginians...You're lucky to live in NC if you do...
As far as we know God always had knowledge of good and evil. Thus the tree of knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden so man would partake, and eventually understand both so man could become good.
How can one know what good is without knowing the opposite? Also, be careful to understand - knowledge of evil does not mean you are evil.
God brought the knowledge of good and evil into the creation at the beginning.
RE: "creating evil", I believe some translations have it meaning "causing trouble" (this is just off the top of my head, can't remember where I read that). The bible gives many examples: floods, droughts, plagues, wars, famine, etc. God is in control of the good and the bad.
It seems bad to us right now, because thats all we know. But ultimately it will be for our benefit. Of course you might not see it that way if you are thinking that are existence ends with this earthly life.
FYI What I am telling you here is NOT what most of mainstream Christianity teaches. The mainstream says "Satan" does all the bad stuff. But the mainstream is sadly mistaken and have in actuality made Satan almost equal to God. Read bible-truths.com for more. God is in control, and God has put us in this mess of an earth for a very good purpose.
Peace.
We have long been aware that the 'problem of evil' is explained in two ways.
(1) God knows what he's doing. Just have Faith
(2) it's Satans' fault.
The problem with the first is that it is clear both from the Bible and from the long story of history that God does not know what he is doing or rather, that the evidence is that there in no god to know or do anything.
The problem with the first is that it is just leads to the previous conclusion.
The numbers game means nothing.
Thirteen and a half million Mormons worldwide? So? The planet boasts 1 billion atheists. But who cares? Quality, not quantity, is what matters. And, how often is the minority right and the majority wrong? Quite often! Such is a common experience in life. Such is an often irrelevant factor as well...
As a Mormon you automatically decry and denigrate relijes which oppose Mormonism. But if one of those boasted more devotees than Mormonism does, would you cite the quantity of the opposition relij's adherents? Of course not. As I said, numbers mean nothing. The numbers game is played when one wants to bolster support for one's cause, as you did when you cited the number of Mormons in the world. Let's see - 13 and a half million Mormons - that means there's 5 billion, 987 million non-Mormons!...
Millions upon millions of humans once believed in slavery. Thousands of those humans practiced slavery, and owned slaves. Do the enormous numbers involved in slavery mean slavery is ethical and good? You know the answer...
I think your analysis is faulty. I very much doubt that there are a billion people in the world who do not believe in a God of some kind. However, even if there were that many they would each have their own individual beliefs and understandings and many would probably disagree with you about much of your own philosophy. Whereas, on the specific topic of Mormonism, all of those Mormons would disagree with you about what you said about us and The Book of Mormon.
As a Mormon I do NOT "automatically decry and denigrate relijes which oppose Mormonism." (I assume you know how to spell "religion" but chose to write a silly word instead and religion is what you are referring to.)
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." 11th Article of Faith LDS Church
Your entire message dwells on it so it is my opinion that it is you who is trying to play a 'numbers game' as you do your best to probably go from board to board trying to destroy the faith of good living people whose experiences and beliefs differ from yours. Why not tell us about the beautiful uplifting things that have come into your life because of your faith in atheism instead of angrily trying to put down the sacred beliefs that are so meaningful in the lives of others?
Last edited by justamere10; 09-15-2009 at 09:35 PM..
You obviously enjoy arguing as well; otherwise, you wouldn't be participating in a debate/discussion forum.
There is a difference between debating and arguing. I prefer the former, not the latter. A civil exchange of thoughts and opinions is ideal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmolosopher
And you err when you tell me I have anger and vitriol at a God in whom I disbelieve. No no no no no...I am not angry at God - it wouldn't make sense to be angry at something which I consider the existence of to be an impossibility...
Thank you for that clarification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmolosopher
I have anger and vitriol - and I admit it - at the gullibility and irrationality of HUMANS, for their swallowing the idea of an Invisible Man in the Sky who controls the universe from behind a cosmic curtain, who sat around for eternity then decided to create people for a motive He or noone else has yet revealed,
Why have such anger at people who believe differently than you? I assure you I am neither gullible nor irrational. Quite the opposite, really. Believing in God, His existence, does take a step of faith but I dare say a smaller step of faith than people realize and much smaller than the faith necessary to deny His very existence.
His motive for our creation, IMO, is clear. The answer I have found, which is similar to the answer provided, is sufficient for me. I understand it and accept it. You don't like the answer and so you don't accept the answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmolosopher
and at humanity's acceptance of a literary depiction of a completely absurd, inconsistent, promise-breaking, coventant-stomping God who often throws temper tantrums and flies into genocidal rages in the anthology that is allegedly his Holy word...
So you also hate the bible. It all makes sense to me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmolosopher
I am also angry and vitriolic because I once fell for such garbage, and clung to it for 30-plus years, with three false conversions interspersed within that period of belief and doubt...
I'm sorry you feel that way and I'm sorry you turned from God rather than toward Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmolosopher
I also express anger and vitriol at the proclivity of so many humans to be down on themselves and feel guilty for something called sin and something called "sinful nature", despising and deprecating themselves to the status of lowly worms helpless against the Invisible Man, instead of living life spontaneously, as life was meant to be lived...
Love, Chris
Living life spontaneously is how we are to live... according to you. So, what authority do you have over another to tell them the way the way they're living is wrong (if indeed it's not spontaneous)? How do you define spontaneous? See where this line of thinking leads? Because God is greater than ourselves and above us in every way and is our creator and sustainer of life, He and only He has the right to tell us how to live. Christians are allowed to have fun and be spontaneous, it's just our brand of fun and frivolity differs in some respects from that of the non-believer. Because I'm a Christian does not mean my funny bone was removed. But what is funny or makes me laugh has changed (for the better, IMO).
As for humans who are down on themselves and all the other adjectives you used because of sin ... that's their fault. No where are we told to wallow in our sin or use it as an excuse for our behavior. We are told to go and sin no more. We are told once we become a believer, a follower, an acceptor of Christ that we are washed clean. We become heirs to the throne of glory. We are saints who will one day receive a great inheritance. There is no reason to dwell on our mistakes, especially those in the past. As we repent, they are forgiven. They are removed from us as far as the east is from the west. I admit I at times live in defeat and focus on my mistakes more than I should. It happens less and less, as do the mistakes. I simply remind myself of who I am in Christ and begin again to live in victory.
That is your opinion. God is in control whether you like it or not. And no, He's not fretting about who is worshiping him and who isn't. In fact his plan is the majority of people won't believe in nor worship him in this life.
I will put Alan Watts on my "things to look into reading" list.
If you want the alternative viewpoint, read some of the articles I posted.
Take care...
It's interesting that you claim god is in control yet you are unable to prove that such a notion is true.
Cosmolosopher, it would be interesting to hear the responses from those who believe that a divine entity created the universe although their arguments will most likely all be along the lines of 'Don't question such things. God is in control, that's it that's all. Believe it or burn.' Rational arguments don't usually work with religious people. If they did then there would be no religious people.
It's interesting that you claim god is in control yet you are unable to prove that such a notion is true.
I can claim it based on the bible. Its called belief. I believe the bible is true, and the bible says God is in complete control. Also, if there is a God, it would make rational sense that that God would be in complete control.
You do not believe the bible, so that is fine, but you are not able to disprove the notion either.
Even if the bible was completely disproven to be a fake, no one can prove or disprove whether a god can exist or not, so such arguments are worthless. For some people the evidence shows them there is the possibility of a god, and they have faith that there is. For others, they don't see any evidence of a god.
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