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Blindness by choice is yours.
The first usage of tebel in the OT is by Hannah, and she quotes from 1 Enoch in her Psalm of praise. 1Sa 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. The pillars are winds/forces/powers, as Enoch describes them. The earth is hung upon "nothing" says the book of Job. Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.
You are the one blinded, by Faith.
The pillars of the earth, whether or not to be interpreted literally, certainly
do not have anything to do with a 'globe'. In fact they would be more likely to support a flat land.
The earth as envisaged by the ancients may well have been concieved as 'hung on nothing' but that says nothing about whether it was a flat or round earth. The Genesis creation description indicates a flat one.
I looked at that and the reference to 'tebel' again is the world, the inhabited world. It says nothing about whether the ancients saw it as flat or globular.
It's true that the gloss refers to the worl- globe but that seems clear from the other hebrew descriptions that I posted that 'globe' is not a connotation of 'tebel'. We say 'globe' now when we talk about the world because we now know that the world is round.
But your side claims that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat. Clearly, it does not, nor did the ancient fathers of all of us believe it. We are all offspring of Enoch, through Noah, and we each have one of Noah's 3 sons as our ancestor. They all knew the shape of the earth was a globe, and their descendants were scattered by tongues all around the globe after..
(Irrelevant rubbish cut)
I expect Fred could reply but you have made no case.
The Bible does not 'clearly' teach that the writers of that knew that the world was a globe. Rather, genesis describes the creation of a flat earth with a dome over it. Nothing later overturns that despite your best efforts. You have not supported your unsubstantiated assertions:
"nor did the ancient fathers of all of us believe (the world was flat)."
"(Noah's sons)..all knew the shape of the earth was a globe."
You haven't proven anything other than that you hang your whole case on your very doubtful use of 'tebel' and unsupported claims.
Obviously you never read the passage nor did you ever read the Bible nor have you ever read the Books of the ancient father of us all, Enoch.
I dealt with this in a former post. The devil took Jesus to the exalted high Mount Eden, from where Adam was cast out of, and showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the Cosmos in a moment of time, and the glory of them, which is an impossibility from any mountain of earth below.
Enoch was taken to Mount Eden, where the Watchers watch over men below, and from their position there they see men below, and they pray and intercede for our human race.
rest of irrelevant tosh cut)
You dealt with this in a former post and have ignored it being stuffed back down your throat. I repeat.
Whether the earth is a globe or flat Jesus could not be taken to a mountain and shown all the nations. So that passage is irrelevant to the argument of the world being flat. In fact if anything it argues for being flat since a gospel -writer might suppose that a high mountain - say Hermon - would enable Jesus to see to the ends of the known earth on a good day. 'Clearly' that would not be possible on a globe.
Even if we go with your hint that this was some kind of view from outer space. Jesus would only be able to see all the kingdoms' (Basilea) in one instant if the world was flat and they were above it. If it was round, the 'kingdoms' on the other side would be hidden.
If you make it some sort of visionary event then, of course, the shape of the earth is irrelevant.
The fact is that that passage does not help your case any more than any of your other quotes.
You have not shown that the OT saw the earth as round. All you have done is show how trying to maintain faith makes dissemblers out of decent people.
I am serious here. You have misrepresented the way this argument has gone. You have tried to fool the people you have been debating by claiming points won that you havent and proofs made that were not. That's dishonest.
Obviously you never read the passage nor did you ever read the Bible nor have you ever read the Books of the ancient father of us all, Enoch.
I dealt with this in a former post. The devil took Jesus to the exalted high Mount Eden, from where Adam was cast out of, and showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the Cosmos in a moment of time, and the glory of them, which is an impossibility from any mountain of earth below.
Enoch was taken to Mount Eden, where the Watchers watch over men below, and from their position there they see men below, and they pray and intercede for our human race.
Eden's Mount is that heavenly realm of this present earth's creation, and the location of it is called "the breadth of the earth". It is where the City of God is being "built up", as born again in Christ souls are added to it, one at a time.
Angels dwell there, who watch, guard, and govern the race of Adam below, for YHWH; and 200 watchers sinned and took wives of daughters of Adam and were forbidden from ever returning to their place in the heavenlies again, and are bound in Sheol below earth, waiting their judgment day.
Satan is not cast down from there and comes and goes -shuttles back and forth, from there to earth below- and he has authority over the kingdoms of darkness of this age.
Satan took Jesus to his high place of authority and showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the cosmos and the glory of them, in a moment of time, which was a very high tech "showing". CNN can't even accomplish that, by satellite.
And of course the earth is fixed in its place, firmly held by the winds of His creation, which are "forces/powers", according to Enoch. The earth does not rotate nor travel in an orbit. The heavens were not made/stretched out, until day 2; and the light of day 1 was stretched out with the stretching of the heavens, when YHWH Elohym divided the waters of this earth's creation by stretching out a firmament between them.
Matthew 4:8 (New International Version)
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor
Matthew 4:8 (New American Standard Bible)
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
Matthew 4:8 (The Message)
For the third test, the Devil took him to the peak of a huge mountain. He gestured expansively, pointing out all the earth's kingdoms, how glorious they all were. Then he said, "They're yours—lock, stock, and barrel. Just go down on your knees and worship me, and they're yours."
Matthew 4:8 (Amplified Bible)
Again, the devil took Him up on a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory (the splendor, magnificence, preeminence, and excellence) of them.
Matthew 4:8 (New Living Translation)
Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory
Matthew 4:8 (King James Version)
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:8 (English Standard Version)
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Matthew 4:8 (Contemporary English Version)
Finally, the devil took Jesus up on a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms on earth and their power.
Matthew 4:8 (New King James Version)
Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Matthew 4:8 (New Century Version)
Then the devil led Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and all their splendor.
Matthew 4:8 (21st Century King James Version)
Again, the devil took Him up onto an exceeding high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Matthew 4:8 (American Standard Version)
Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:8 (Young's Literal Translation)
Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Matthew 4:8 (Darby Translation)
Again the devil takes him to a very high mountain, and shews him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory,
Matthew 4:8 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Again, the Devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Matthew 4:8 (New International Reader's Version)
Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Matthew 4:8 (Wycliffe New Testament)
Again the fiend [Again the devil] took him [up] into a full high hill, and showed to him all the realms of the world, and the joy of them [and the glory of them];
Matthew 4:8 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
The devil took Jesus to a very high hill. He showed him all the countries of the world and how great they were.
Matthew 4:8 (New International Version - UK)
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour.
Matthew 4:8 (Today's New International Version)
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Obviously whoever made up this fairy tale thought the world was flat.
The pillars of the earth, whether or not to be interpreted literally, certainly
do not have anything to do with a 'globe'. In fact they would be more likely to support a flat land.
The earth as envisaged by the ancients may well have been concieved as 'hung on nothing' but that says nothing about whether it was a flat or round earth. The Genesis creation description indicates a flat one.
I looked at that and the reference to 'tebel' again is the world, the inhabited world. It says nothing about whether the ancients saw it as flat or globular.
It's true that the gloss refers to the worl- globe but that seems clear from the other hebrew descriptions that I posted that 'globe' is not a connotation of 'tebel'. We say 'globe' now when we talk about the world because we now know that the world is round.
There is no place in Scripture that claims the world/globe of the earth is flat. Not one place can that be found in all the word.
All ancient builders of all megaliths allowed for the curvature of the earth in building their monuments, whose ruins are scattered all over the globe/world.
The Great Pyramid at Giza defies those who teach that ancient man believed the world was flat. It was built on earth, by earthlings, who were descendants of Noah -and of Enoch. The site below believes in aliens [they are evolutionists, of course], but the facts of the Pyramid builders' understanding the curvature of the earth and making allowances for it in building, are what I want to point out.
Quote:
v All four sides of the Pyramid are very slightly and evenly bowed in, or concave. This effect, which cannot be detected by looking at the Pyramid from the ground, was discovered around 1940 by a pilot taking aerial photos to check certain measurements. As measured by today's laser instruments, all of these perfectly cut and intentionally bowed stone blocks duplicate exactly the curvature of the earth. The radius of this bow is equal to the radius of the Earth.
Tebel did not get redefined, which is what you are saying.
In the Genesis Apocryphon, which I mentioned earlier, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is written that the last days battle of the heavenly heroes "spans the globe/tebel".
Moses wrote the Book of Jasher [Joshua completed it], using the records of the patriarchs which he had access to, and in Jasher 6:11,12 Moses wrote [from Noah's record] this: And on that day, the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains in the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before; and God did this mighty act, in order to terrify the sons of men, that there might be no more evil upon earth. And still the sons of men would not return from their evil ways, and they increased the anger of the Lord at that time, and did not even direct their hearts to all this.
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 09-19-2009 at 02:14 PM..
All ancient builders of all megaliths allowed for the curvature of the earth in building their monuments, whose ruins are scattered all over the globe/world.
There is no ancient manmade structure on the earth that is so large that the builders would need to calculate and allow for the curvature of the earth. You can't even see the curvature until you're a great distance above the surface and are able to view hundreds of miles in every direction. Of course if we were to look at the Interstate Highway system in America from outer space it would follow the curvature of the continent of North America but obviously the highway crews don't have to make those kinds of calculations when they're building a new stretch of road. I would imagine that you're referring to something like the largest pyramids in Egypt or something of that nature but they're far too small to require the builders to realize that the earth is a sphere and not flat and to have to make some minor adjustments because of it.
There is no place in Scripture that claims the world/globe of the earth is flat. Not one place can that be found in all the word.
All ancient builders of all megaliths allowed for the curvature of the earth in building their monuments, whose ruins are scattered all over the globe/world.
The Great Pyramid at Giza defies those who teach that ancient man believed the world was flat. It was built on earth, by earthlings, who were descendants of Noah -and of Enoch. The site below believes in aliens [they are evolutionists, of course], but the facts of the Pyramid builders' understanding the curvature of the earth and making allowances for it in building, are what I want to point out.
Tebel did not get redefined, which is what you are saying.
In the Genesis Apocryphon, which I mentioned earlier, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is written that the last days battle of the heavenly heroes "spans the globe/tebel".
They Egyptians and the greeks knew the earth was round. But clearly who every made up the bible, didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme
Moses wrote the Book of Jasher [Joshua completed it], using the records of the patriarchs which he had access to, and in Jasher 6:11,12 Moses wrote [from Noah's record] this: And on that day, the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains in the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before; and God did this mighty act, in order to terrify the sons of men, that there might be no more evil upon earth. And still the sons of men would not return from their evil ways, and they increased the anger of the Lord at that time, and did not even direct their hearts to all this.
I expect Fred could reply but you have made no case.
The Bible does not 'clearly' teach that the writers of that knew that the world was a globe. Rather, genesis describes the creation of a flat earth with a dome over it. Nothing later overturns that despite your best efforts. You have not supported your unsubstantiated assertions:
"nor did the ancient fathers of all of us believe (the world was flat)."
"(Noah's sons)..all knew the shape of the earth was a globe."
You haven't proven anything other than that you hang your whole case on your very doubtful use of 'tebel' and unsupported claims.
Genesis does not describe a flat earth with a dome over it. You either made that up or you are just regurgitating skeptics' sites.
What is said in Genesis is that the earth was created as an empty/void expanse of water, with darkness upon the face of the "deep"[the water], and God then brought light into being, and the darkness and the light made a complete day of twelve hours of darkness and twelve hours of light, rotating about the globe of the earth, forever.
Rotation of the heavens about the earth is in Genesis, and the orbits of the sun, moon and stars, is in Genesis. The early patriarchs understood the signs of the sun, moon and stars, as the Creator appointed them to be signs for days, seasons, and years.
Enoch was taken on a tour of the created universe, escorted by archangels, centuries before the flood of Noah, and he described the heavenly orbits of the constellations with their stars, and the heavenly orbits of the sun and the moon as he was shown them by the archangel Uriel. Enoch explained that the sun never "rested" and that there were stars which never set .
Quote:
Enoch Section I I I. Chapters LXXII-LXXXII
The Book of the Heavenly Luminaries
chapter 72...
And the sun has (therewith) traversed the divisions of his orbit and turns again on those divisions of his orbit, and enters that portal thirty mornings and sets also in the west 28 opposite to it. And on that night has the night decreased in length by a ninth part, and the night 29 has become eleven parts and the day seven parts.
And the sun has returned and entered into the second portal in the east, and returns on those his divisions of his orbit for thirty mornings, rising 30 and setting. And on that day the night decreases in length, and the night amounts to ten parts 31 and the day to eight. And on that day the sun rises from that portal, and sets in the west, and returns to the east, and rises in the third portal for one-and-thirty mornings, and sets in the west of the heaven. 32 On that day the night decreases and amounts to nine parts, and the day to nine parts, and the night 33 is equal to the day and the year is exactly as to its days three hundred and sixty-four. And the length of the day and of the night, and the shortness of the day and of the night arise-through the course 34 of the sun these distinctions are made (lit. ' they are separated ').
So it comes that its course becomes 35 daily longer, and its course nightly shorter. And this is the law and the course of the sun, and his return as often as he returns sixty times and rises, i.e. the great luminary which is named the sun, for ever and ever. And that which (thus) rises is the great luminary, and is so named according to 37 its appearance, according as the Lord commanded.
As he rises, so he sets and decreases not, and rests not, but runs day and night, and his light is sevenfold brighter than that of the moon; but as regards size they are both equal. [Chapter 73]
1 And after this law I saw another law dealing with the smaller luminary, which is named the Moon. And her circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and her chariot in which she rides is driven by the wind, and light is given to her in (definite) measure. And her rising and setting change every month: and her days are like the days of the sun, and when her light is uniform (i.e. full) it amounts to the seventh part of the light of the sun. And thus she rises. And her first phase in the east comes forth on the thirtieth morning: and on that day she becomes visible, and constitutes for you the first phase of the moon on the thirtieth day together with the sun in the portal where the sun rises. And the one half of her goes forth by a seventh part, and her whole circumference is empty, without light, with the exception of one-seventh part of it, (and) the 6 fourteenth part of her light. And when she receives one-seventh part of the half of her light, her light 7 amounts to one-seventh part and the half thereof. And she sets with the sun, and when the sun rises the moon rises with him and receives the half of one part of light, and in that night in the beginning of her morning [in the commencement of the lunar day] the moon sets with the sun, and 8 is invisible that night with the fourteen parts and the half of one of them. And she rises on that day with exactly a seventh part, and comes forth and recedes from the rising of the sun, and in her remaining days she becomes bright in the (remaining) thirteen parts.
[Chapter 74]
1 And I saw another course, a law for her, (and) how according to that law she performs her monthly 2 revolution. And all these Uriel, the holy angel who is the leader of them all, showed to me, and their positions, and I wrote down their positions as he showed them to me, and I wrote down their months 3 as they were, and the appearance of their lights till fifteen days were accomplished. In single seventh parts she accomplishes all her light in the east, and in single seventh parts accomplishes all her 4 darkness in the west. And in certain months she alters her settings, and in certain months she pursues 5 her own peculiar course. In two months the moon sets with the sun: in those two middle portals the 6 third and the fourth. She goes forth for seven days, and turns about and returns again through the portal where the sun rises, and accomplishes all her light: and she recedes from the sun, and in eight 7 days enters the sixth portal from which the sun goes forth. And when the sun goes forth from the fourth portal she goes forth seven days, until she goes forth from the fifth and turns back again in seven days into the fourth portal and accomplishes all her light: and she recedes and enters into the 8 first portal in eight days. And she returns again in seven days into the fourth portal from which the 9, 10 sun goes forth. Thus I saw their position -how the moons rose and the sun set in those days. And if five years are added together the sun has an overplus of thirty days, and all the days which accrue 11 to it for one of those five years, when they are full, amount to 364 days. And the overplus of the sun and of the stars amounts to six days: in 5 years 6 days every year come to 30 days: and the 12 moon falls behind the sun and stars to the number of 30 days. And the sun and the stars bring in all the years exactly, so that they do not advance or delay their position by a single day unto eternity; but complete the years with perfect justice in 364 days. In 3 years there are 1,092 days, and in 5 years 1,820 days, so that in 8 years there are 2,912 days. For the moon alone the days amount in 3 years to 1,062 days, and in 5 years she falls 50 days behind: [i.e. to the sum (of 1,770) there is 5 to be added (1,000 and) 62 days.] And in 5 years there are 1,770 days, so that for the moon the days 6 in 8 years amount to 21,832 days. [For in 8 years she falls behind to the amount of 80 days], all the 17 days she falls behind in 8 years are 80. And the year is accurately completed in conformity with their world-stations and the stations of the sun, which rise from the portals through which it (the sun) rises and sets 30 days.
[Chapter 75]
1 And the leaders of the heads of the thousands, who are placed over the whole creation and over all the stars, have also to do with the four intercalary days, being inseparable from their office, according to the reckoning of the year, and these render service on the four days which are not 2 reckoned in the reckoning of the year. And owing to them men go wrong therein, for those luminaries truly render service on the world-stations, one in the first portal, one in the third portal of the heaven, one in the fourth portal, and one in the sixth portal, and the exactness of the year is 3 accomplished through its separate three hundred and sixty-four stations.
For the signs and the times and the years and the days the angel Uriel showed to me, whom the Lord of glory hath set for ever over all the luminaries of the heaven, in the heaven and in the world, that they should rule on the face of the heaven and be seen on the earth, and be leaders for the day and the night, i.e. the sun, moon, and stars, and all the ministering creatures which make their revolution in all the chariots 4 of the heaven. In like manner twelve doors Uriel showed me, open in the circumference of the sun's chariot in the heaven, through which the rays of the sun break forth: and from them is warmth 5 diffused over the earth, when they are opened at their appointed seasons. [And for the winds and 6 the spirit of the dew when they are opened, standing open in the heavens at the ends.]
As for the twelve portals in the heaven, at the ends of the earth, out of which go forth the sun, moon, and stars, 7 and all the works of heaven in the east and in the west, There are many windows open to the left and right of them, and one window at its (appointed) season produces warmth, corresponding (as these do) to those doors from which the stars come forth according as He has commanded them, 8 and wherein they set corresponding to their number.
And I saw chariots in the heaven, running 9 in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set. And one is larger than all the rest, and it is that that makes its course through the entire world.
Enoch went to the poles;
"And I saw chariots in the heaven, running 9 in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set".
Enoch saw a cloud that always hovers over the earth;
Quote:
chapter 41...
3 And there mine eyes saw the secrets of the lightning and of the thunder, and the secrets of the winds, how they are divided to blow over the earth, and the secrets of the clouds and dew, and there 4 I saw from whence they proceed in that place and from whence they saturate the dusty earth.
And there I saw closed chambers out of which the winds are divided, the chamber of the hail and winds, the chamber of the mist, and of the clouds, and the cloud thereof hovers over the earth from the 5 beginning of the world.
And I saw the chambers of the sun and moon, whence they proceed and whither they come again, and their glorious return, and how one is superior to the other, and their stately orbit, and how they do not leave their orbit, and they add nothing to their orbit and they take nothing from it, and they keep faith with each other, in accordance with the oath by which they 6 are bound together. And first the sun goes forth and traverses his path according to the commandment 7 of the Lord of Spirits, and mighty is His name for ever and ever. And after that I saw the hidden and the visible path of the moon, and she accomplishes the course of her path in that place by day and by night-the one holding a position opposite to the other before the Lord of Spirits.
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 09-19-2009 at 09:55 PM..
Genesis does not describe a flat earth with a dome over it. You either made that up or you are just regurgitating skeptics' sites.
What is said in Genesis is that the earth was created as an empty/void expanse of water, with darkness upon the face of the "deep"[the water], and God then brought light into being, and the darkness and the light made a complete day of twelve hours of darkness and twelve hours of light, rotating about the globe of the earth, forever.
Rotation of the heavens about the earth is in Genesis, and the orbits of the sun, moon and stars, is in Genesis. The early patriarchs understood the signs of the sun, moon and stars, as the Creator appointed them to be signs for days, seasons, and years.
Enoch was taken on a tour of the created universe, escorted by archangels, centuries before the flood and he described the heavenly orbits of the constellations with their stars, and the heavenly orbits of the sun and the moon as he was shown them. Enoch explained that the sun never "rested" and that there were stars which never .
What about all these then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
Matthew 4:8 (New International Version)
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor
Matthew 4:8 (New American Standard Bible)
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
Matthew 4:8 (The Message)
For the third test, the Devil took him to the peak of a huge mountain. He gestured expansively, pointing out all the earth's kingdoms, how glorious they all were. Then he said, "They're yours—lock, stock, and barrel. Just go down on your knees and worship me, and they're yours."
Matthew 4:8 (Amplified Bible)
Again, the devil took Him up on a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory (the splendor, magnificence, preeminence, and excellence) of them.
Matthew 4:8 (New Living Translation)
Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory
Matthew 4:8 (King James Version)
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:8 (English Standard Version)
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Matthew 4:8 (Contemporary English Version)
Finally, the devil took Jesus up on a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms on earth and their power.
Matthew 4:8 (New King James Version)
Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Matthew 4:8 (New Century Version)
Then the devil led Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and all their splendor.
Matthew 4:8 (21st Century King James Version)
Again, the devil took Him up onto an exceeding high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Matthew 4:8 (American Standard Version)
Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:8 (Young's Literal Translation)
Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Matthew 4:8 (Darby Translation)
Again the devil takes him to a very high mountain, and shews him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory,
Matthew 4:8 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Again, the Devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Matthew 4:8 (New International Reader's Version)
Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Matthew 4:8 (Wycliffe New Testament)
Again the fiend [Again the devil] took him [up] into a full high hill, and showed to him all the realms of the world, and the joy of them [and the glory of them];
Matthew 4:8 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
The devil took Jesus to a very high hill. He showed him all the countries of the world and how great they were.
Matthew 4:8 (New International Version - UK)
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour.
Matthew 4:8 (Today's New International Version)
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Obviously whoever made up this fairy tale thought the world was flat.
There is no place in Scripture that claims the world/globe of the earth is flat. Not one place can that be found in all the word.
All ancient builders of all megaliths allowed for the curvature of the earth in building their monuments, whose ruins are scattered all over the globe/world.
The Great Pyramid at Giza defies those who teach that ancient man believed the world was flat. It was built on earth, by earthlings, who were descendants of Noah -and of Enoch. The site below believes in aliens [they are evolutionists, of course], but the facts of the Pyramid builders' understanding the curvature of the earth and making allowances for it in building, are what I want to point out.
Tebel did not get redefined, which is what you are saying.
In the Genesis Apocryphon, which I mentioned earlier, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is written that the last days battle of the heavenly heroes "spans the globe/tebel".
Moses wrote the Book of Jasher [Joshua completed it], using the records of the patriarchs which he had access to, and in Jasher 6:11,12 Moses wrote [from Noah's record] this: And on that day, the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains in the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before; and God did this mighty act, in order to terrify the sons of men, that there might be no more evil upon earth. And still the sons of men would not return from their evil ways, and they increased the anger of the Lord at that time, and did not even direct their hearts to all this.
I'm not going to waste any more time after post this as it is quite clear that you have no case. You won't listen but it's clear that you have no case.
Genesis is only comprehensible as a flat earth. All other reerences make sense as a flat earth. Of course they don't say outright that it's flat. Why would they need to state the obvious?
I have never heard any hint from any reputable architect or archaologist that megaliths in any way indicate that their builders had a knowledge that the world was round.
The great pyramid and evey other pyramid in no way indicates that their builders saw the earth as round. You haven't given a shred of support for this assertion.
You are grossly misrepresenting what I say. I am not saying that 'tebel' gets 'redefined'. I am saying that, according to all the sources that I came across, it simply means the earth - the inhabited earth. And it has no connotation of what shape that might be. It is of no use in proving the shape of the earth either way - flat or round. It is simply irrelevant.
"In the Genesis Apocryphon, which I mentioned earlier, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is written that the last days battle of the heavenly heroes "spans the globe/tebel".
Now this is a claim. You assert that the Genesis Apocryphon specifically mentions 'globe' in association with 'tebel' (which does not mean globe or flat or any other shape). Just the inhabited earth or world. I shall try to check that.
Later...
[… …missing first 2 lines, except for last two words …] and not for length […… ……] for during the days of Yared, my father [… … … …] sons [… …. … … … … …] and to you they will be [… … …] upon the whole of the earth [… … …] my land to this sea (?) [… … …] earth [… …] earth […] And now, go [… …] truthfully, not with lies […
(col.4)
from [… … …] they will rage and [… … …] for all eternity […] evil [… … … 7 lines missing …] I beheld the judicial sentence [… … …] great and the end [… … …] surface of the earth [ … 1 line missing] upon them [… …bottom half of column missing, perhaps 14-15 lines …]
And now I say to you, my son, and I declare to you […] truthfully [… …] Go, speak to Lamech your son [… … …] and placed/cast it/him on the earth, and every deed of the heavenly beings [… … …]
…] and I thought .. I had knowledge of all the behavior (?) of the inhabitants of the earth, and I declared every [… … …
[… …] on/over them, the land and everything which is on it, in the seas and among the mountains […
his wife after him/her [… … … 3.5 lines missing … …] the world/eternity [… … 4 lines missing
Then […] upon the earth […] and he took from [… … … …] find, for [… … …] the ark settled (upon) one of the mountains of Ararat and eternal fire (?) [… … … …] I atoned for all the earth and its origin (?) [ …
Then I, Noah, departed and traveled through the land, through its length and its breadth […
And after this I descended to the lower slopes of that mountain, I, my sons, and my grandchildren [… …] for devastation was great on
the earth.
Well, I won't post all of it, but I see NO mention of 'globe'. I say again that it is possible to say that the references to 'land' and 'earth' refer to a globe because we now know it it, but you can't tell that from this text.
Incidentally, the text is hardly persuasive as fact as 'Noah' appears to refer to countries that didn't exist until later.
"My son Shem divided his apportionment among his sons. The first (share) fell to Elam: in the north next to the waters of the Tigris River until it approaches the Red Sea at its source which is in the north, and it turns to the west to Asshur until it reaches the Tigris [… …] and after him, to Aram: the land which is between the two rivers (i.e., Mesopotamia) until it reaches the peak of Mount Asshur […"
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-19-2009 at 10:25 PM..
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