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Alicenavada, do you believe Jesus was/is God - the Alpha and Omega? Or is Jehovah the Alpha and Omega?
The Words apply to Almighty God Jehovah but in many translations it is made to appear that it applies to both. At Rev 1:8, its owner is said to be God. In verse 11 of the KJ bible, it is applied to one who proves himself to be Christ. But scholars actually recognize this reference in verse 11 to be spurious so it doesn appear in many bible translations. I can think of at least five that do not include it.
Rev 22:13 shows the Alpha and Omega as being 'the first and the last' which is applied to Jesus at Rev 1:17,18 so many feel this means they are the same. However, the expression 'apostle' is also applied to both Jesus and certain ones of his folloers but they are not of equal rank (Heb 3:1). Jesus was 'the first and the last' in many ways but that doesnt make him equal to God.
CoolCats, first a Christian cannot pick and choose and twist the Word of God to make it what they desire...it is what it is. All three of those religions have distorted the Word, and have added to it and taken away from it.
I have show you what JW's believe about Christ. And it is not what the Bible teaches.
It is a false Christianity. They have the right to worship that way, yes, but to claim it is a bible version of Christianity would be a blatant lie. I have discussed both Catholicism and LDS on their prospective threads.
I will continue to defend God's Word and will not placate anyone who adds to it or takes away from it.
I never said I was infallible btw...but the Holy Spirit is. And when you add to His Word anything goes. These religions are corrupt because they do not stick to the only Truth we have, and that is God's Word... when you add to it, anything goes. We are not talking about interpretation, we are talking about corruption, adding to God's Word, and ignoring what you don't like.
Big difference.
MBG
MGB -- for every question you have the same answer, which is to paraphrase “I have the Truth, based on the word of God in the Bible, and the others don’t.” But you didn’t answer my question. You condemned many sincere people to hell if they didn’t follow the Truth as you define it. Yet you criticized the JWs, Mormons, and Catholics for allegedly doing the same to you for not following their religions. I want to know specifically how you reconcile your condemnation against your criticism of the other groups.
Further, lets exclude Mormons, Catholics, and JWs. There are many groups who follow the bible only, yet come to different understandings of it. Lutherans, Methodists, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Baptists to name a few. I want to know specifically how you reconcile the differences among these groups, which all claim to follow purely biblical teachings. In your opinion, which Christian denominations are on the right path, and which are not? Can a Lutheran and a Baptist both be saved by following their respective religions?
Also, I would like to know your opinion on what happens to the billions of people who are Muslim, Buddhist, etc. and don’t live in a pervasively Christian environment and will thus never have a chance to accept Christianity as you define it.
Again, I’m not looking for a general “I have the Truth” answer, but specific answers to the above questions.
The Words apply to Almighty God Jehovah but in many translations it is made to appear that it applies to both. At Rev 1:8, its owner is said to be God. In verse 11 of the KJ bible, it is applied to one who proves himself to be Christ. But scholars actually recognize this reference in verse 11 to be spurious so it doesn appear in many bible translations. I can think of at least five that do not include it.
Rev 22:13 shows the Alpha and Omega as being 'the first and the last' which is applied to Jesus at Rev 1:17,18 so many feel this means they are the same. However, the expression 'apostle' is also applied to both Jesus and certain ones of his folloers but they are not of equal rank (Heb 3:1). Jesus was 'the first and the last' in many ways but that doesnt make him equal to God.
Okay, I really have to go. I'll be back.
And as a JW those are your beliefs...but they are not the beliefs of a Christian.
Christians believe:
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
He (Yeshua) is the Alpha and Omega..He is Creator. Yeshua=God.
He is to be Worshiped!
Philippians 2: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
MGB -- for every question you have the same answer, which is to paraphrase “I have the Truth, based on the word of God in the Bible, and the others don’t.” But you didn’t answer my question. You condemned many sincere people to hell if they didn’t follow the Truth as you define it. Yet you criticized the JWs, Mormons, and Catholics for allegedly doing the same to you for not following their religions. I want to know specifically how you reconcile your condemnation against your criticism of the other groups.
Further, lets exclude Mormons, Catholics, and JWs. There are many groups who follow the bible only, yet come to different understandings of it. Lutherans, Methodists, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Baptists to name a few. I want to know specifically how you reconcile the differences among these groups, which all claim to follow purely biblical teachings. In your opinion, which Christian denominations are on the right path, and which are not? Can a Lutheran and a Baptist both be saved by following their respective religions?
Also, I would like to know your opinion on what happens to the billions of people who are Muslim, Buddhist, etc. and don’t live in a pervasively Christian environment and will thus never have a chance to accept Christianity as you define it.
Again, I’m not looking for a general “I have the Truth” answer, but specific answers to the above questions.
I condemned no one...I have no power to do such.
I simply know the Truth as the Truth is within the Word. You co without and you have corruption, doctrines of men, not God.
It is not up to me what happens to whom, but God is clear:
"I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." Jesus Christ, John 14:6
It is not a denominational issue. Either one follows the Christ of the Bible, or one does not. Many who call on Him will not be saved, that is biblical fact. A religion does not save and most so called Christian faiths have been corrupted. The road is narrow, few will make it. One must put church aside and come to Christ, as a religion cannot save, only Christ saves.
That does not mean there are not Christians in all denominations, but belonging to any particular denomination does nothing to save your soul. Many religions have add to the Word of God and have taken away from it, have exchange the truth of God for a lie. We are to read the Word, as it is the only reliable source for God plan for us. We can either heed it or turn from it.
The Word is enough, you need nothing more, adding to it, or removing parts is an insult to it's Author.
Again, I am not here to judge, but to speak in Truth. An that Truth is Christ. And His Truth is found only within the hearts of believers and in His Book.
MBG
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
The Words apply to Almighty God Jehovah but in many translations it is made to appear that it applies to both. At Rev 1:8, its owner is said to be God. In verse 11 of the KJ bible, it is applied to one who proves himself to be Christ.
Huh?? Show me in the Bible where there is a difference between the Alpha and Omega being God Almighty in one place, and Jesus in another place.
And what do you mean "Applied to one who proves himself to be Christ"? Where did you get that from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
But scholars actually recognize this reference in verse 11 to be spurious so it doesn appear in many bible translations.
Why not? Why would some translations have it, while others don't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
Rev 22:13 shows the Alpha and Omega as being 'the first and the last' which is applied to Jesus at Rev 1:17,18 so many feel this means they are the same.
They are the same. The words for "Alpha and Omega" apply equally to God and Jesus. The words for "First and Last" apply equally to God and Jesus. On what basis would you think otherwise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
However, the expression 'apostle' is also applied to both Jesus
And as a JW those are your beliefs...but they are not the beliefs of a Christian.
Christians believe:
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
He (Yeshua) is the Alpha and Omega..He is Creator. Yeshua=God.
He is to be Worshiped!
Philippians 2: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
MBG
Once again, MBG, you quote scriptures that only prove my point. Jesus always spoke to his disciples about his father. His father sent him. He prayed to his father. The early Christian congregation understood this as well. You can use your definition of Christian to define me all you want but I know that only God can determine that.
John 1:1 has already been addressed (see my past post) and JW are not the only ones who feel that this verse is incorrectly translated in the KJ bible. After all, how can a person BE GOd and yet be WITH God at the same time? The scripture you quote from Phillipians is actually incorrectly translated in The KJ bible also...which is understandable because KJ only had the received text of his day and therefore lacked much of the information we have at our disposal today. It should say something along the lines of 'gave no consideration to a seizure by claiming to be equal to God.' The reason we know that this translation is correct is that, in the letter to the Phillipians, he starts off that chapter by saying 'be of the same mind as Christ'..There is no way Paul would be telling the Phillipian congregation to be claiming equality with God. He was teaching HUMILITY in these verses, right? How can telling Christ's followers to claim equality to God be teaching humility? So the phrasing of the KJ bible is incorrect. You may view other bible translations also to fortify this. You HAVE to consider the context always.
Once again, I think that the many people who believe they are trinitarians are actually not. In many cases, they agree w/ us-that Christ and GOd are 'one' in unity as the bible teaches-but not actually one person. Interestingly, in countries where people read the bible but do not attend church, we have found that the idea of a trinity never enters their minds. They almost always come to their own conclusion-that Christ and God are seperate.
Once again, MBG, you quote scriptures that only prove my point. Jesus always spoke to his disciples about his father. His father sent him. He prayed to his father.
I agree. Of course this is considered a "mystery of faith" (as far as I know, that's what it's called) but there's no denying that in the Gospels, Jesus spoke to God, and not just in the presence of others to show them "how"...it is also noted how he went off alone and prayed.
Huh?? Show me in the Bible where there is a difference between the Alpha and Omega being God Almighty in one place, and Jesus in another place.
And what do you mean "Applied to one who proves himself to be Christ"? Where did you get that from?
Why not? Why would some translations have it, while others don't?
They are the same. The words for "Alpha and Omega" apply equally to God and Jesus. The words for "First and Last" apply equally to God and Jesus. On what basis would you think otherwise?
I'm so sorry WCRob, I feel I may have jumped the gun by responding to your question in the way I did and I apologize. Let me first respond to your original question by saying: Yes, I believe The Alpha and Omega applied to God Almighty, Jehovah.
It was wrong of me to assume you were going to use certain scriptures or a certain bible as proof of the trinity doctrine. NOW feel free to question me as you see fit.
And I will be more than happy to respond. I dont want us to get off on the wrong foot.
I agree. Of course this is considered a "mystery of faith" (as far as I know, that's what it's called) but there's no denying that in the Gospels, Jesus spoke to God, and not just in the presence of others to show them "how"...it is also noted how he went off alone and prayed.
I appreciate your comment. Many of the people that we approach in our ministry feel the same way that you do but, actually, this subject has never been an 'enigma' to Jehovah's Witnesses. We don't believe the bible is shrouded in mystery at all. We find that any scriptures that appear to mislead in this area are easily explained by the context.
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