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No Jesus was sinless, according to the scriptures.
Also, yes, Jesus is the Christ and does require our obeisance but I'm afraid you'll have to expound on the term 'worshipped'. Ultimate worship belongs to his heavenly father, Jehovah, of course. I know this is not in keeping w/ other religions of fundamental christianity and this may be the reason so many of them refuse to accept our calling ourselves Christian.
(Interestingly, 'Webster's' simply refers to a Christian as one who follows the teachings of Christ. If that is the case, you can be a 'christian' and belong to no religion. But I've had members of quite a few religions get angry when I bring that up...Webster's holds no water with them. )
Last edited by alicenevada; 06-01-2007 at 09:50 AM..
No Jesus was sinless, according to the scriptures.
Also, yes, Jesus is the Christ and does require our obeisance but I'm afraid you'll have to expound on the term 'worshipped'. Ultimate worship belongs to his heavenly father, Jehovah, of course. I know this is not in keeping w/ other religions of fundamental christianity and this may be the reason so many of them refuse to accept our calling ourselves Christian.
No, I ask because I've never understood that teaching.
The wise men worshiped Jesus, people that Jesus healed worshiped Jesus, I believe it was Timothy that fell before Jesus and worshiped Him, etc. There's multiple scriptures in just the gospels that show Jesus was worshiped and that Jesus allowed folks to worship Him without rebuking them. I believe that if I allowed someone to worship me, it would be a sin and I should point them to The Lord as Paul did in Acts when he was worshiped there. Would me allowing people to worship me be sin, in the opinion of JWs? And, if so, why is it not considered sin when Jesus allowed people to worship Him? I try and take my cue from Jesus Himself, and if scriptures show Him worthy of worship, yes, even accepting that worship, then I tend to want to follow suit.
Also, along those same lines, I believe there's only One True Good God, Jehovah God. All other gods mentioned in my Bible are idols, false deities, demons etc. According to JW scripture and apparent teachings, there's at least two Gods that JWs acknowledge as good and that are a part of the positive side of their religion. What's your opinion on that?
Also, thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. It's imperative that the Jehovah's Witnesses are represented as they truly are. If I've got something wrong, I need to be corrected.
Actually, they worshipped Jesus in the sense that they did obeisance to him. The Greek word here used has also been used in reference to rulers and statesmen to whom people bowed to show thankfulness or honor. Jesus excepting this type of honor was fitting because he was a representation of his heavenly father and any honor shown him reflected on God.
Jesus did not sin so we can't assume that his acceptance of worship would make him a sinner. He was perfect. And he was the son of God so he deserved this respect. However, he never claimed to be equal to God. He gave all the honor to his father the entire time he was on the earth. 'The Father is Greater Than I Am' is an example . His clear seperation from his father is also quite evident in the fact that he prayed incessantly while on earth and instructed his disciples to do the same. Common sense does not allow us to assume that he was praying to himself.
We believe that Jehovah God is the only true God and that Jesus was his only begotten son. The term 'god' was used in reference to Jesus which shows his divine origin but that term is actually quite loose in Greek language and does not ever refer to Almighty God-a term that Jesus never used in reference to himself.
I am happy to help. I want people to at least try to educate themselves about our faith before they determine that we are wrong. Thanks for that.
I don't question your sincerity, but to an outsider like me, your attitude comes of as smug. Maybe its just me though.
I actually don't have a problem with scripture. I believe there is one truth. My problem is that all people, yourself included, interpret scripture fallibly. You fail to recognize that your interpretation is but one of many. You will find many people who read the same bible verses as you and understand them differently.
I don't think Catholics deny the divinity of Christ. I know Mormons don't. I'm not as familiar with JWs, but it sounds like they don't either. I guess the issue is solved, right?
Next, how does this
differ from what you are accusing the said Churches of?
CoolCats, first a Christian cannot pick and choose and twist the Word of God to make it what they desire...it is what it is. All three of those religions have distorted the Word, and have added to it and taken away from it.
I have show you what JW's believe about Christ. And it is not what the Bible teaches.
It is a false Christianity. They have the right to worship that way, yes, but to claim it is a bible version of Christianity would be a blatant lie. I have discussed both Catholicism and LDS on their prospective threads.
I will continue to defend God's Word and will not placate anyone who adds to it or takes away from it.
I never said I was infallible btw...but the Holy Spirit is. And when you add to His Word anything goes. These religions are corrupt because they do not stick to the only Truth we have, and that is God's Word... when you add to it, anything goes. We are not talking about interpretation, we are talking about corruption, adding to God's Word, and ignoring what you don't like.
I appreciate your zeal. You truly feel you have found the truth of God's word. And I absolutely agree with you that a Christian cannot pick and choose to twist the word of God. Apostates inthe first century did that, as you'll remember, and we all know what God thought of those people.
As a Jehovah's Witness, I appreciate your strength of faith. I haven't been able to read this whole thread but anything you have questions about, concerning my beliefs, I will be happy to oblige. I think three are a few instances where you may have misunderstood your source.
Actually, they worshipped Jesus in the sense that they did obeisance to him. The Greek word here used has also been used in reference to rulers and statesmen to whom people bowed to show thankfulness or honor. Jesus excepting this type of honor was fitting because he was a representation of his heavenly father and any honor shown him reflected on God.
Jesus did not sin so we can't assume that his acceptance of worship would make him a sinner. He was perfect. And he was the son of God so he deserved this respect. However, he never claimed to be equal to God. He gave all the honor to his father the entire time he was on the earth. 'The Father is Greater Than I Am' is an example . His clear seperation from his father is also quite evident in the fact that he prayed incessantly while on earth and instructed his disciples to do the same. Common sense does not allow us to assume that he was praying to himself.
We believe that Jehovah God is the only true God and that Jesus was his only begotten son. The term 'god' was used in reference to Jesus which shows his divine origin but that term is actually quite loose in Greek language and does not ever refer to Almighty God-a term that Jesus never used in reference to himself.
I am happy to help. I want people to at least try to educate themselves about our faith before they determine that we are wrong. Thanks for that.
He did claim equality with the Father...YESHUA IS GOD!! That is why the JW religion is not biblical Christianity.
John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
I appreciate your zeal. You truly feel you have found the truth of God's word. And I absolutely agree with you that a Christian cannot pick and choose to twist the word of God. Apostates inthe first century did that, as you'll remember, and we all know what God thought of those people.
As a Jehovah's Witness, I appreciate your strength of faith. I haven't been able to read this whole thread but anything you have questions about, concerning my beliefs, I will be happy to oblige. I think three are a few instances where you may have misunderstood your source.
I do not feel I have I know I have.
I know what your church teaches you have the right to believe what you do, we all have that right, but to claim it is biblical Christianity, well is not truth. I have no questions about your faith as I have studied it long enough to know that it is not the same Christianity that is found in the Word. I understand enough to know you follow are very different belief system than blood-bought-born-again-bible-believing Christians.
It is your right to do so and you do not have to justify it.
MBG
Actually, they worshipped Jesus in the sense that they did obeisance to him. The Greek word here used has also been used in reference to rulers and statesmen to whom people bowed to show thankfulness or honor. Jesus excepting this type of honor was fitting because he was a representation of his heavenly father and any honor shown him reflected on God.
I believe it's the exact same Greek word Jesus used when discussing worship with the woman at the well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
Jesus did not sin so we can't assume that his acceptance of worship would make him a sinner. He was perfect. And he was the son of God so he deserved this respect. However, he never claimed to be equal to God. He gave all the honor to his father the entire time he was on the earth. 'The Father is Greater Than I Am' is an example . His clear seperation from his father is also quite evident in the fact that he prayed incessantly while on earth and instructed his disciples to do the same. Common sense does not allow us to assume that he was praying to himself.
I don't think we should even try and use 'common sense' in regards to the issues of the Kingdom of God. There's certainly nothing common about it and the bible teaches us that as far as the heavens are from the Earth, so are God's ways and thoughts from our....and that's a LOOOOONNNGGGG way...certainly farther than common sense. It also teaches us to lean not on our own understanding (common sense).
I just know there's a huge difference in the New World Translation of John 1:1 and every other biblical interpretation I know of. Jesus is the Word. And either the Word was God, or the Word was a god. Big difference. Very big.
Also, a quick scenario for you.
If you were to knock on my door to witness to me, and I told you that out of hopelessness I had just drank a glass of poison that would kill me within two minutes, and I asked you how I could assure myself an eternal position in Heaven, how would you respond?
No Jesus was sinless, according to the scriptures.
Also, yes, Jesus is the Christ and does require our obeisance but I'm afraid you'll have to expound on the term 'worshipped'. Ultimate worship belongs to his heavenly father, Jehovah, of course. I know this is not in keeping w/ other religions of fundamental christianity and this may be the reason so many of them refuse to accept our calling ourselves Christian.
(Interestingly, 'Webster's' simply refers to a Christian as one who follows the teachings of Christ. If that is the case, you can be a 'christian' and belong to no religion. But I've had members of quite a few religions get angry when I bring that up...Webster's holds no water with them. )
That is the problem, the World has a very different definition, than God does. According the the dictionary the Bible is wrong on this. Sorry, I am going by God's Word not man's.
MBG
MBG
None of those scriptures claim equality to god, MGB... All of them simply claim his existence in heaven. I understand that you may have been taught for many years that these scriptures are concrete evidence that Jesus is God but unfortunately, if that is the case, the bible is full of contradictions and I don't believe that.
Actually, your bible verses prove my point even more beautifully:
John 14. 'No man cometh unto the father except by me' shows a clear seperation of two individuals...a father and son- an avenue to his father.
John 14. 7-11 shows that Jesus is a representation of his father. He is the image of his father just as we are the image of them. I think it shows a lovely relationship.
John 14: 13...'I go unto my father'...a clear seperation of individuals. Or else a contradiction of the trinity doctrine since they're supposed to be the same person.
John 14:20-shows clearly that Jesus is speaking of UNITY. 'I am in he and ye in me'...he is showing that his oneness w/ the father and the oneness he feels w/ his disciples is a form of unity. Otherwise, you'd have to think he means his disciples and he are one person as well.
John 14: 21...'shall be loved of my father'.... A seperate being. Then he says 'AND I will love him'. Twofold love.
John 14: 24- 'the father's -which sent me'...which sent me...the father sent him. Two seperate beings.
John 14:28-'The father is greater than I am'. How can the father be greater than he if they are the same person?
Since I don't believe the bible contradicts itself, I believe Jesus is God's son and that he rightly gave the glory to his Father throughout the scriptures. I believe the unity between Christ and his Father has been misconstrued by most of today's religions. And therefore, when I pray, I pray to Jehovah and close my prayer in Jesus' name, as we were instructed.
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