For God Forgive Adam sin, Jesus had to died !!!! WHY ? (soul, translation)

[insan777]

What is the truth ...in son of God want to died for the sin of Adam and our sins ... !!!!
We the Muslims believe that God saved Jesus ,,,, Because God could helped him as he saved Ibrahim, and Moses , and all his Prophets
because GOD can do what he want by one order " BE" and it will be

its many questions ask your self ....
Could God helped Jesus ?
1-Why God choiced Jesus for be a scrafice " for the sin of Adam" ?
and If Jesus came for that mission ( for clear the sin of Adam ) why he (jesus) begged his father to help him ?
2-Why he became in a human in the cross ???
3-Where were his friends ? they were hide ? Why they did not helped him ? no one tried to helped him !!!!Moderator cut: inappropriate

4-And If God let his son dieing as sacrifice for the sin of Adam, it means that God preferred Abraham more then Jesus, when he did not let him slay his son ...because God saved Ishmael (in your religion Isaac) and did not saved Jesus
Moderator cut: offensive statement

[museofire]

insan777, sorry if no-one has replied so far.

1-Why God choiced Jesus for be a scrafice " for the sin of Adam" ?
and If Jesus came for that mission ( for clear the sin of Adam ) why he (jesus) begged his father to help him ?

1. God didn't choose Jesus, God (or at least one of the elements of God) became incarnated (made human) and was born as Jesus mainly for the reason of dying for mankind. Being fully human meant that he would have had emotions and, as such, was afraid of his impending death. That is why he asked his father to take the "torture" aspect from his death, if it were possible.

2-Why he became in a human in the cross ???

2. Jesus didn't become human on the cross; he was already a human. He became an offering for sin on the cross. The israelites were given offerings to make, via their high-priest, for the sins of the nation. These were laws of Moses. These offerings were "blood offerings" where certain types of animal were to be killed (A ram in this case, I think) and their blood shed. Jesus became the offering that meant it was no longer needed to be offered. Only Jesus was aware of this at the time, that is why, I believe, he said, "Father forgive them; they don't know what they are doing"

3-Where were his friends ? they were hide ? Why they did not helped him ? no one tried to helped him !!!!

3. His friends were mostly hiding; they were recognisable and feared for their lives. John was with Jesus' mother at the scene of the crucificion. Peter tried to help when they came to arrest him by getting a sword and cutting one of the arresting party's ear off - Jesus stopped him, told him off then healed the man's ear. Jesus' taught peace, that is why he told Peter off and that is why his followers didn't gather arms to attack.

4-And If God let his son dieing as sacrifice for the sin of Adam, it means that God preferred Abraham more then Jesus, when he did not let him slay his son ...because God saved Ishmael (in your religion Isaac) and did not saved Jesus

4. Ishmael is dead. Jesus is alive. I don't think that shows a favouritism towards Ishmael.

Those are the answers, so far as I am aware, that you were asking for, according to the Torah and the New Testament books of the Christian BIble.

Now, answer me this question.
1. Why would a god that can make this world, its people, animals, emotions, who can tell a mountain to move from one place to another just by saying, as you put it "Be", why would this all poweful god need people to be prophets? Can god not tell us himself?

If we are asked to believe one religion, believe in one god, one set of beliefs, shouldn't we get to hear god tell us what we should believe instead of people telling us what other people have told them, what books are written; why should we be seperated from god so much that there is no proof of his existence, only the words and writings of other people.

[sarahkate_m]

The questions posed by OP are meant to be inflammatory (Christian vs. Muslim)... meanwhile... why would I answer questions clearly posted by a person using a translating editor that gets so much "lost in translation"...

Besides that, I don't think we need to believe in just one god...

Kate

[museofire]

If Insan777 has questions, however he/she posed them, the longer they are left unanswered the more he/she may think they are right to believe what they do; the question I have asked is part of what I believe and, seeing that no-one has given me a decent answer, my point of view remains and is strengthened and, perhaps, can enlighten others.

[syberpriend]

1

Originally Posted by museofire

insan777, sorry if no-one has replied so far.

1. God didn't choose jesus, god (or at least one of the elements of god) became incarnated (made human) and was born as jesus mainly for the reason of dying for mankind. Being fully human meant that he would have had emotions and, as such, was afraid of his impending death. That is why he asked his father to take the "torture" aspect from his death, if it were possible.

* if god became incarnated, thn he is not god anymore my friend, where jesus or god said he will die for mankind? Does his death finished the sins of world? If i commit sin today, rape some1, murder sum1, and told court that jesus died for my sin, leave me, does it make sense to u????and if he was willingly put on cross, y he was afraid? Dont god knows the plan for himself? Or he changed his plans?

2. Jesus didn't become human on the cross; he was already a human. He became an offering for sin on the cross. The israelites were given offerings to make, via their high-priest, for the sins of the nation. These were laws of moses. These offerings were "blood offerings" where certain types of animal were to be killed (a ram in this case, i think) and their blood shed. Jesus became the offering that meant it was no longer needed to be offered. Only jesus was aware of this at the time, that is why, i believe, he said, "father forgive them; they don't know what they are doing"

* offering was given by israelis like u said, but the offering was given of innocent being, and never they made offering of human, if jesus said, father forgive them etc etc, y he said at the end "elai elai lama sa....",
u are far away from truth, and keeping ur eyes and mind close my friend will never bring u wat happe in real, just going to church on sunday, and singing allelulya wont help u friend.

[size=4]jesus prays for rescue [/size]
[size=4][/size][size=4]". . . And began to be sorrowful and very depressed. Then saith he unto them, ‘my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death' . . ." [/size]
[size=4][/size][size=4][size=4]"and he went a little further, and fell on his face (exactly as the muslim does in salaat), and prayed, saying, "o my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as i will, but as thou wilt."[/size]
[size=4][/size][/size][size=3](this is the quality of a good muslim who submits his will to the will of god). [/size]
[size=3](holy bible) [/size][size=3]matthew 26: 37-39[/size]
[size=4]"and being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly;[/size][size=3][/size]
[size=4][size=4]and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground’’[/size]
[size=4][/size][/size][size=3](holy bible)[/size] [size=3]luke 22:44[/size]

3. His friends were mostly hiding; they were recognisable and feared for their lives. John was with jesus' mother at the scene of the crucificion. Peter tried to help when they came to arrest him by getting a sword and cutting one of the arresting party's ear off - jesus stopped him, told him off then healed the man's ear. Jesus' taught peace, that is why he told peter off and that is why his followers didn't gather arms to attack.

* but his deciples whom he arranged in the house to protect him, when jewish soldiers came, the deciples were sleeping, and y jesus told them to buy swords, and later he changed his plans, do god all of sudden change plans? Then he is not god.
"when i sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" and they said, "nothing" then said he unto them, "but now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one!"
(holy bible) luke 22:35-36
[size=4]this is a preparation for a war — jews against jews! Why! Why this somersault? Did he not advise them to "turn the other cheek"; "to forgive seventy times seven" (70 x 7 = 490)? Did he not send his chosen twelve with the advice: [/size]
[size=4]"behold, i send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, as wise as serpents, (?) and as[/size]
[size=4]harmless as doves." [/size]
[size=4][/size](holy bible) matthew 10:16

[size=4][/size]
". . . Lord, behold, here are two swords." and he said unto them, "it is enough". (holy bible) luke 22:38

4. Ishmael is dead. Jesus is alive. I don't think that shows a favouritism towards ishmael.

* i dont understand wat u mean here, ismael was a prophet, same like jesus, isaac and ismael were brothers, wats wrong in this, it makes muslims and christinas cousins, if u dnt agree its upto u, dont agree ur father is ur father, we wont mind.

those are the answers, so far as i am aware, that you were asking for, according to the torah and the new testament books of the christian bible.

Now, answer me this question.
1. Why would a god that can make this world, its people, animals, emotions, who can tell a mountain to move from one place to another just by saying, as you put it "be", why would this all poweful god need people to be prophets? Can god not tell us himself?

* god send prophets to guide people, its like u r asking, y we need teachers in schools colleges? We can be a dr. Or an engineer by ourselves, hope this give u an answer.

if we are asked to believe one religion, believe in one god, one set of beliefs, shouldn't we get to hear god tell us what we should believe instead of people telling us what other people have told them, what books are written; why should we be seperated from god so much that there is no proof of his existence, only the words and writings of other people.

* the problem in the world is ofcourse many people worship different god, follow diff faith, the solution is all should be united under 1 family brother, god send his prophets, his books, god didnt send angels to guide mankind, that is the creation of humans, so choose right or wrong, otherwise animals tree other living things were enough. Though ppl think books were writings of peoples, ofcourse they were, but they were revealed to them by god. That is y there is theology depts. In universities and doctorate is given to students, ave u heard any ahtiest dept.in any university of world??

[syberpriend]

so Sarah, how many gods are u willing to believe, uve any justification or proof of many gods??do u have many father and mother?

[psalm25]

I did reply but it was also deleted. I was the first reply.

[victorianpunk]

This is why, for me at least, orthodox (lower case "o") Christianity just doesn't add up. If GOD is omnipotent, then why couldn't he have forgiven humanity without having Christ die? I mean, what gives? Was he just that angry that he had to vent on someone...and if he had to vent on someone, why choose someone as innocent as the one man who didn't sin? and if he is that mean and angry a GOD...then is he really a GOD worth worshipping?

This is one of the many reasons why I am a Gnostic: We believe that, if the Myth is true, Christ did not die on the cross for our sins but was the living embodiement of GOD who came not to forgive us for some sins, but to teach us. That at least is consistent.

I have nothing against mainstream Christians or their religion, it's just that the whole doctrine, for me at least, doesn't add up.

[Thomas R.]

Humans sometimes need a dramatic signal to know something happened. Just saying "I forgive you" sometimes doesn't do it.

The ancient Jews would kill a goat as a sin offering. Jesus in a sense offered himself. The sinful and prideful nature of people, particularly religious people, killed him. Also it served the purpose of showing us God does understand. Through the Crucifixion Christ experienced pain, humiliation, etc. And then he was Resurrected showing an ability to move beyond death and give hope.

As I understand Gnosticism it indicates Jesus is some kind of spirit and had no human aspect. His body was like a remote-controlled robot so the Crucifixion wasn't much more than having your remote-controlled toy fall into a ditch. Hence he remains potentially a remote figure without much connection.

[museofire]

Syberpriend, thank you for your answers. Let me attempt to answer your answers.

* if god became incarnated, thn he is not god anymore my friend, where jesus or god said he will die for mankind? Does his death finished the sins of world? If i commit sin today, rape some1, murder sum1, and told court that jesus died for my sin, leave me, does it make sense to u????and if he was willingly put on cross, y he was afraid? Dont god knows the plan for himself? Or he changed his plans?

The bible says that god is spirit. If this is so then having flesh formed around a spirit would not stop god from being the same god; he is not changing.
MY mother recently underwent a hip operation. She knew it was coming, knew it would benefit her, knew that she would be pain free afterwards, but she was still scared about it, still didn't look forward to the possible pain of the operation or the possible complications. If he didn't appear to not want to go through the hours of pain ahead of him, knowing that it was about to happen, then I don't think that you can imagine that he was in any way human.

As for the forgiveness part, I will answer it after with this next part:

* offering was given by israelis like u said, but the offering was given of innocent being, and never they made offering of human, if jesus said, father forgive them etc etc, y he said at the end "elai elai lama sa....",
u are far away from truth, and keeping ur eyes and mind close my friend will never bring u wat happe in real, just going to church on sunday, and singing allelulya wont help u friend.


The offering was never human because, as you say, the sacrifice required an innocent without spot or blemish. If a spirit became born as human, that was not cursed as the decendents of Adam (God told Adam and Eve that they were cursed{in seperate ways} after they disobeyed him. SInce Jesus was not born by the fatherhood of a human he did not take on this curse and was in the unique postition to take the need for blood sacrifice away be a once and for all sacrifice. Itdidn't mean that we were to be forgiven of our sins for all eternity; it meant that people could ask for forgiveness without having to offer a sacrifice.
I don't quite know what you mean by
u are far away from truth, and keeping ur eyes and mind close my friend will never bring u wat happe in real, just going to church on sunday, and singing allelulya wont help u friend.
but perhaps you are continuing the idea of all time forgiveness. As I have said, this is not the case.

[size=4]jesus prays for rescue [/size]
[size=4][/size][size=4]". . . And began to be sorrowful and very depressed. Then saith he unto them, ‘my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death' . . ." [/size]
[size=4][/size][size=4][size=4]"and he went a little further, and fell on his face (exactly as the muslim does in salaat), and prayed, saying, "o my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as i will, but as thou wilt."[/size]
[size=4][/size][/size][size=3](this is the quality of a good muslim who submits his will to the will of god). [/size]
[size=3](holy bible) [/size][size=3]matthew 26: 37-39[/size]
[size=4]"and being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly;[/size][size=3][/size]
[size=4][size=4]and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground’’[/size]
[size=4][/size][/size][size=3](holy bible)[/size] [size=3]luke 22:44[/size]

I'M not sure what happened here, but I think you are implying that Jesus was praying for a rescue.
How many times does Jesus ask for the "cup" to be taken from him? Once. Stating, "but not my will but yours". The "cup", I believe, refers to the torture before the actual death. There were prophesies which, many believe, jesus fulfilled leading up to his death. The final one being the tasting of vinegar wine, I think. After this he said, "It is finished" and died. HOWEVER, the references to the taking of the cup happen ONCE. Jesus prayed in the garden for, apparently, hours; he could have been praying/upset about many things, including the coming persecution of his friends/followers.

* but his deciples whom he arranged in the house to protect him, when jewish soldiers came, the deciples were sleeping, and y jesus told them to buy swords, and later he changed his plans, do god all of sudden change plans? Then he is not god.
"when i sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" and they said, "nothing" then said he unto them, "but now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one!"
(holy bible) luke 22:35-36
[size=4]this is a preparation for a war — jews against jews! Why! Why this somersault? Did he not advise them to "turn the other cheek"; "to forgive seventy times seven" (70 x 7 = 490)? Did he not send his chosen twelve with the advice: [/size]
[size=4]"behold, i send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, as wise as serpents, (?) and as[/size]
[size=4]harmless as doves." [/size]
[size=4][/size](holy bible) matthew 10:16

[size=4][/size]
". . . Lord, behold, here are two swords." and he said unto them, "it is enough". (holy bible) luke 22:38

I'm sorry, I forgot about this, but...
Your assumption that,"this is a preparation for a war" is incorrect; you are taking verses out of context. Why did jesus tell them to get swords? I don't know, maybe because, as he goes on to say, this is a time when ..."Darkness reigns" and his disciples needed to protect themselves. There was no call to war, jesus surrendered himself to the guards. There is no misunderstanding here if you read the text in the context it lives in but, as you know, you can take a sentence from a set of writings and make it look in a different light; Jesus certainly doesn't tell anyone to stamp on other people's necks or to use violence against anyone.

* i dont understand wat u mean here, ismael was a prophet, same like jesus, isaac and ismael were brothers, wats wrong in this, it makes muslims and christinas cousins, if u dnt agree its upto u, dont agree ur father is ur father, we wont mind.


I'M sorry, once again; I'm afraid that I didn't understand Insan777's sentence.
Sure, Isaac and Ishmael were brothers (not the same person as Insan777 stated) and god blessed them both -nothing wrong. Does this make Christians and muslims cousins? Well, it makes decendants of Ishmael and decendants of Isaac related in some way but to be a christian or muslim shouldn't have anything to do with who your family are but with who we are; we make our own choices over what we believe - it shouldn't have anything to do with what race we belong to.

I asked why god would need prophets...
* god send prophets to guide people, its like u r asking, y we need teachers in schools colleges? We can be a dr. Or an engineer by ourselves, hope this give u an answer.
I asked why god doesn't give evidence of his existence, only writings by people...
* the problem in the world is ofcourse many people worship different god, follow diff faith, the solution is all should be united under 1 family brother, god send his prophets, his books, god didnt send angels to guide mankind, that is the creation of humans, so choose right or wrong, otherwise animals tree other living things were enough. Though ppl think books were writings of peoples, ofcourse they were, but they were revealed to them by god. That is y there is theology depts. In universities and doctorate is given to students, ave u heard any ahtiest dept.in any university of world??

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter but I don't believe you have truly answered, perhaps I haven't made it clear enough.

Q>If I have a message to tell someone, an important message that will give the person I tell it to the the knowledge to be saved from a certain death, what would I do? What would I do if that person was my child?
A>I would tell them, plainly, face to face, what I needed to tell them. I would make sure that they knew that I was being truthful and would give them the evidence they needed to see that I was telling them the truth.
OR
A> I would keep myself away from them before they were born, so that they didn't know me and had no idea who I am. I would tell someone the gist of the message which they would write down. I would make sure that my child was much older before I contact them so that they would wonder why it took so long. I would contact them by speaking to someone else and asking them to tell them the message. I would, on no account, contact my child directly or offer any evidence that the message is from me or that the message has a basis on anything the child is familiar with. I would never let them see me.

SO, which of those two answers is the best, most logical, correct way to give the message and which one is the most like the answer we get from god/religion?

I find it plain to see that to believe in god is to believe in the contradictory in the illogical and unfounded.