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Old 04-03-2019, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
One thing I'll have to look at is where Alexander fits in. Raffs looks at the Nebuchadnezzar 'prophecy'. But I'm thinking about the one where Tyre is destroyed and a 'place for spreading nets'. Which. shortly after the fall of Tyre to the Macedonians it was. So that 'prophecy' can be pretty neatly dated by the context, as it wasn't too many years before it was rebuilt and a later Macedonian had to come and knock the place over again.
Alexander doesn't fit anywhere in the prophecy old sprout. He's not even mentioned. The theist just need to fit him in so that they can claim a prophesy to account for the failed Nebby prophesy. One would have thought that if Ezekiel had meant Alexander he would have mentioned him by name eh?
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Old 04-03-2019, 03:52 PM
Status: "Nozzeated - monumentally." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
24,997 posts, read 12,943,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Typical escape route. When all else fails, just attack the credibility of the source, right?
It's the 1st rule of responsible Journalism: Always consider the source.

If the source is not credible, you do not run the story. This was drilled into my head as I got my Journalism degree 40+ years ago.

Sadly, looking at the news media today, it seems most no longer adhere to that rule.
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Old 04-03-2019, 03:54 PM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
.. Raffs looks at the Nebuchadnezzar 'prophecy'....

aaaand, that is his error; the prophecy is ABOUT TYRE - being destroyed, by MANY NATIONS.
Read it!

Neb. was just ONE of the attackers....
it never states that it would be ONLY by neb. really simple.
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Old 04-03-2019, 04:14 PM
 
37,397 posts, read 10,114,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Alexander doesn't fit anywhere in the prophecy old sprout. He's not even mentioned. The theist just need to fit him in so that they can claim a prophesy to account for the failed Nebby prophesy. One would have thought that if Ezekiel had meant Alexander he would have mentioned him by name eh?
I think it does, old twiglet.


he most celebrated and miraculous element of this prophecy comes from…

Ezekiel 26:4 -- “[I will] destroy the the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her…”; 26:12 -- “throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water.”

This is precisely what Alexander the Great did centuries later:

“The refusal of the Tyrians to surrender led Alexander to connect the isle to the mainland with the construction of a causeway, one of the most difficult marine engineering tasks of that era… The stones of the fresh ruins of ancient Tyre [previously destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar], together with trees limbs, were drawn into the water, and stones and sand were placed on top of them in order to build the mole.”[Yaacov Nir, “The City of Tyre, Lebanon and its Semi-artificial Tombolo” Geoarchaeology 11 (1996): 235.]

It seems that the prophecy extends over the two sieges, the second Not being effected by Nebuchadnezzar as you point out, but being done as in the prophecy by Alexander. A very effective prophecy - if done before the event.

But the prophecy says that Tyre will never be rebuilt - which it was. This (like Daniel) pinpoints the date of the prophecy. After the city was destroyed by Alexander but before it was rebuilt - which would of course mean that the prophecy was wrong.

Perhaps we can look at the whole thing and see which bits of it refer to the Babylonian attack and which to the Macedonian.
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Old 04-03-2019, 07:02 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,705 posts, read 4,590,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Typical escape route. When all else fails, just attack the credibility of the source, right?
Credibility?

There is NO "old original city of Tyre" under any waves. A new Island did not just spring up. The people of Tyre did not lose the majority of their Island during the time of Nebby under the Mediterranean sea. That didn't happen under Alexander or under the Fatimids.

The city of Tyre is and has been the city of Tyre. Built, expanded, and maintained eternally.

It has rebuilt any damages it has taken.
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Old 04-03-2019, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou View Post
aaaand, that is his error; the prophecy is ABOUT TYRE - being destroyed, by MANY NATIONS.Read it!
Yes, it is and it specifically states who was going to destroy it. Nebby. 'He will do this.He will do that. It goes on to say predict what HIS army will do. THEY will put people to the sword. They will break down your walls. They will enter your gates and slaughter people in the street. You just want 'they' to mean 'other nations' because that covers the failed Nebby prophecy.

Even if I allow you Alexander, you still have two failed prophecies rather than one because Nebby did not do those things that Ezekiel said he would do above and Alexander rebuilt the city.

Quote:
Neb. was just ONE of the attackers....
Then why mention Neb at all? Why not leave it as 'many nations' and save himself the embarrassment of Nebby's utter failure do do what Ezekiel said he would do?

Quote:
it never states that it would be ONLY by neb. really simple.
...and yet Neb is the only one mentioned. If you predict something is going to happen and who is going to do it, what the hell is the point in mentioning someone that isn't going to do it? Don't you think it's more logical to mention what is going to happen and WHO is going to do it?

Here's something for you. In the days of Nebby, it was common practice to have armies made up of men from all over. Some were mercenaries, some were foreign soldiers captured in previous battles...much like the Roman army contained very few Romans. We know for a fact that Nebby had a huge number of Greek mercenaries fighting for him. We know that he used mercenary soldiers in Palestine.

If you are a Bible believer we have...

Jehoiakim died at this time; Jeremiah 22:18-19 and 36:30 suggest that he was assassinated. Jehoiakim’s son, Jehoiachin was made the new king of Judah (597 B.C.), but three months later he submitted to Nebuchadnezzar–who then deported to Babylon the king of Judah, his mother, the royal family, the palace officials, the army officers, fighting men, craftsmen, and smiths. He also took all the men of substance and all the men who were capable of war.
(2 Kings 25:27-30; Jer. 52:31-34)

..and here...

Now I will hand all your countries over to my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him” (Jeremiah 27:6-7

So there is your 'many nations'. Can you show that is not the case?

Last edited by Rafius; 04-03-2019 at 11:44 PM..
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Old 04-03-2019, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,797 posts, read 10,075,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Perhaps we can look at the whole thing and see which bits of it refer to the Babylonian attack and which to the Macedonian.
We could do old squirt. Let's start with this....


For thus says Yahweh God: "Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defence against you. He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, you shall never be rebuilt, for I Yahweh have spoken,"

To me it is undeniable that the 'HE' in this passage is referring to Nebby and 'THEY' is referring to his army.
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Old Yesterday, 04:18 AM
Status: "Pr 6:16-19, JeffBase, Pneuma!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Germany
4,024 posts, read 733,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Typical escape route. When all else fails, just attack the credibility of the source, right?
Typical misrepresentation. We know the source is not credible.
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Old Yesterday, 06:16 AM
 
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Well, It's true that it doesn't mention the attack by Alexander, but only Nebuchadnezzar's attack which didn't reduce Tyre, so certainly a prophecy Fail there.

The condition of Tyre as described in the prophecy (pretty much scraped bare) was only after Alexander's reduction of the city, even if it looks like it is related to Nebuchadnezzar's attack.

Possibly the clue is in 'Many Nations'. the Babylonian attack was the first with the absurd 'chariots' which are useless in a siege and had become obsolete by then. Since Assyrian times, cavalry had replaced chariots.

So I can only suggest that Ezekiel somehow Uses Alexander's attack of Tyre as fulfilling a prophecy of the king of Babylon doing it, which he didn't.

The only named king making the attack - Nebuchadnezzar; the only attack that flattened the city as 'predicted, Alexander's. Bottom line is that even Alexander flattening Tyre didn't remove it permanently. It was rebuilt.

I'm taking the point where Tyre was smashed by the Macedonian army but not yet rebuilt. Jerusalem, however HAD been rebuilt under the Persians. In your face, Tyria! Not that Tyre spent any time mocking Jerusalem for being reduced by Babylon, but the Hebrew writer was looking back at the exile and Jerusalem and the temple being shattered. But Tyre prospered. What, as Salieri says in the film, was God playing at?

But there we are. Tyre finally humbled. Mind, it had taken a couple of hundred years, but Tyre suffered the same fate as Jerusalem, punished by God for not being smashed when Jerusalem was. Mysterious ways, I guess. Just some vague ideas about how the writer might have come to write this odd prophecy.

It's wrong anyway.

...............

Ezekiel 26 King James Version (KJV)
26. 1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the Lord.

7 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.

9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.

11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.

12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.

14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

15 Thus saith the Lord God to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?

16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.

17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

19 For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;

20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; Yesterday at 06:29 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,797 posts, read 10,075,786 times
Reputation: 2521
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Well, It's true that it doesn't mention the attack by Alexander, but only Nebuchadnezzar's attack which didn't reduce Tyre, so certainly a prophecy Dail there.

The condition of Tyre as described in the prophecy (pretty much scaped bare) was only after Alexander's reduction of the city, even if it looks like it is related to Nebuchadnezzar's attack.

Possibly the clue is in 'Many Nations'. the Babylonian attack was the first with the absurd 'chariots' which are useless in a siege and had become obsolete by then. Since Assyrian times, cavalry had replaced chariots.

So I can only suggest that Ezekiel somehow Uses Alexander's attack of Tyre as fulfilling a prophecy of the king of Babylon doing it, which he didn't.

No named king making the attack - Nebuchadnezzar; the only attack that flattened the city as 'predicted, Alexander's. Bottom line is that even Alexander flattening Tyre didn't remove it permanently. It was rebuilt.
Indeed my dear old scrot. Whichever way we cut it, the prophecy fails. Nebuchadnezzar didn't take Tyre as the prophesy said he would and although Alexander did take Tyre, he rebuilt it. Tyre is not a bare rock where fishermen spread their nets and, if we look for it, it CAN be found. Score to us I think!

...............
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