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Old 04-05-2019, 04:08 AM
Status: "Pr 6:16-19, JeffBase, Pneuma!" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
4,146 posts, read 759,413 times
Reputation: 649

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou View Post
Köln was never an island city that had it's island no more ......
But it was rebuilt after the second world war. Not as it was before, but it was rebuilt. But not with your definition.

Can you again for not understanding that point.
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Old 04-05-2019, 04:15 AM
Status: "Pr 6:16-19, JeffBase, Pneuma!" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
4,146 posts, read 759,413 times
Reputation: 649
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou View Post
Yes, finally, thank you for affirming that Tyre WAS an ISLAND & fortified walled city - proudly impervious to siege (because it was an island!). But FOREVER no more an Island (thx to Alex filling in a causeway with rubble from OLD TYRE, per your article {and mine- that Neb conquered}),
and FOREVER unable to be rebuilt an island fortified walled city!
NO MORE 'queen of the seas;
No MORE 'island city of unprecedented splendor'.

Prophecy Fulfilled!
But it was rebuilt. Prophecy still Failed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou View Post
annnnnd, YES, finally, thank you for affirming that the current flattened ruins (with plenty of room for drying nets) are not a 'rebuilt Tyre' island fortified walled city -
- but stuff built by the subsequent conquering 'many nations',
- and never an island fortified walled city


there may be hope for you yet, 'ol Raf!
Yes, they are ruins now, but ruins of the buildings of Tyre rebuilt.

You are pretending rebuilt means an exact replica. Which would mean every rebuilt city was not really rebuilt. You are fooling no one with your silly word game.

You have also failed to demonstrate your 'prophecy' was written before or after the event.
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:02 PM
 
37,630 posts, read 10,202,688 times
Reputation: 4985
Exactly. Every rebuilt city - whether destroyed or not could be claimed to be a Different city - just with the same name. It's just fiddling the facts to fit the faith.

...."This is the pastor, all forlorn
who fielded excuses old and worn,
who mined the quotes,
who pasted the text,
inverted the logic
and fiddled the facts,
appealed to unknowns,
who played the martyr,
who begged the question,
to support the house of Jack S...t."
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Old 04-06-2019, 10:43 PM
 
5,745 posts, read 4,566,962 times
Reputation: 1850
It fails even if Ezekiel said there was more than one 'nation'/'goyim' to come against it. First, Nebby did not do what the prophecy said he was going to do. Second, even after Alexander it was rebuilt. Furthermore, Nebby was a king of kings - which meant that he subdued/conquered many peoples from other 'goyim' which he used in his campaigns. Also, if Nebby destroyed it, never to be rebuilt again, how could others come after (Alexander) and destroy it again. That's makes no sense.

What makes sense is that this was written after Alexander like much of the redacted OT is. Many apologists love to do this shell game where many nations would comes against it starting with Nebby and ending with Alex as the fulfillment never to be built again yet Rome, as the picture suggests, built it up pretty well. The moving of goal post by apologist with words games is typical intellectual dishonest BS by the faithful.

Obvious FAIL!
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Old 04-07-2019, 05:21 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,880 posts, read 10,111,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Furthermore, Nebby was a king of kings - which meant that he subdued/conquered many peoples from other 'goyim' which he used in his campaigns.
Quite so old horse, which would have given him an army of 'many nations' as I said in post #26.
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Old 04-07-2019, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,880 posts, read 10,111,437 times
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Now what about ol' Zeke's other massive failure...

‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will bring a sword against you and kill both man and beast. Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

“‘Because you said, “The Nile is mine; I made it,” therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years. I will make the land of Egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.'


It never happened. There is no verifiable evidence that Egypt was ever surrounded by devastated, desolate lands and devoid of man and beast for 40 years.

Prophecy failed.
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:10 PM
 
37,630 posts, read 10,202,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Now what about ol' Zeke's other massive failure...

‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will bring a sword against you and kill both man and beast. Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

“‘Because you said, “The Nile is mine; I made it,” therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years. I will make the land of Egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.'


It never happened. There is no verifiable evidence that Egypt was ever surrounded by devastated, desolate lands and devoid of man and beast for 40 years.

Prophecy failed.
It does. There were interreignums when the Rulers were weak and the empire dwindled, and times when it was conquered, but nether anything do devastating as that.

I always have a smile when I see the word Egypt, because the British army squaddies, just as they pronounced "Ypres" as "Wipers", they called Egypt "Eggwiped".
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:23 PM
 
Location: California USA
893 posts, read 607,709 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
The Tyre prophecy referred to Ezekiel's promise that Nebuchadnezzar would completely destroy Tyre and it would never be rebuilt. Nebby did not destroy Tyre as the prophecy claimed he would...he didn’t even capture it. He laid siege to the island city for 13 years before coming to a compromise. As for Tyre never being rebuilt, it is today, the second most populated city in Lebanon.

Why do Christians not consider this 'prophecy' to have failed?
Reading Ezekiel 26 in its entirety in conjunction with secular history solidifies the prophecy.

The prophecy begins with the nations (they) not just one dude Nebby would be causing carnage. Ezekiel then focuses on Nebby (he) and then back to they (the nations).


Nebby captured and sacked the mainland but the island portion of the city came under nominal submission since it appears Nebby did not breach the island portion. That's where the "nations," also part of the prophecy, came into play(how convenient for doubters to leave that part out).

Subsequent "nations" ransacked the city including the island portion by Alexander the Great. He used rubble and trees and dirt from the mainland portion of the city to build a land bridge. By the way, that is also mentioned in prophecy...the stones, timber, and soil would be cast in the midst of the water. He did eventually reach the island city and devastated it too. He's not the only one but also Romans, Syrians, Egyptians, etc also at one time or another contributed to the assault on Tyre.

The only connection between the Tyre of today and the ancient Phoenician city is its approximate location. A traveler by the name of Benjamin of Tudela kept diaries of his travels which included mention of the ancient city of Tyre. He observed that near the existing city of Tyre one could take a boat and see portions of the ruined ancient city now covered by the sea. It would be a site where fisherman would dry out their dragnets. That was also part of Ezekiels prophecy (hmmm there is a pattern of the details of the prophecy being fulfilled) . Tyre would be as uninhabitable as other desolate cities. It would be covered over by the watery deep. And, as is known to occur coastlines change so that after 2500 years one could expect the specific site to be lost to modern day observers since its covered over by sand, land, and water. Trying to excavate under the current city to see if there are traces of the mainland portion of the ancient Phoenician city is highly unlikely as it would involve tearing through settlements. People generally don't like their homes and business destroyed to reach what? Maybe some stones and pottery shards of the ancient Phoenician city?

Good Lord how many nations and assaults and fulfillment of the components in the prophecy does it take for some people to get the picture. Yes, the prophecy involving the nations including the Babylonians was fulfilled. Certainly the modern city of Tyre cant even be said to have been rebuilt since the modern city's streets, edificies, infrastructure bears no connection, zero, with the ancient Phoenician city which is dead and buried.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,880 posts, read 10,111,437 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
Reading Ezekiel 26 in its entirety in conjunction with secular history solidifies the prophecy.

The prophecy begins with the nations (they) not just one dude Nebby would be causing carnage. Ezekiel then focuses on Nebby (he) and then back to they (the nations).


Nebby captured and sacked the mainland but the island portion of the city came under nominal submission since it appears Nebby did not breach the island portion. That's where the "nations," also part of the prophecy, came into play(how convenient for doubters to leave that part out).

Subsequent "nations" ransacked the city including the island portion by Alexander the Great. He used rubble and trees and dirt from the mainland portion of the city to build a land bridge. By the way, that is also mentioned in prophecy...the stones, timber, and soil would be cast in the midst of the water. He did eventually reach the island city and devastated it too. He's not the only one but also Romans, Syrians, Egyptians, etc also at one time or another contributed to the assault on Tyre.

The only connection between the Tyre of today and the ancient Phoenician city is its approximate location. A traveler by the name of Benjamin of Tudela kept diaries of his travels which included mention of the ancient city of Tyre. He observed that near the existing city of Tyre one could take a boat and see portions of the ruined ancient city now covered by the sea. It would be a site where fisherman would dry out their dragnets. That was also part of Ezekiels prophecy (hmmm there is a pattern of the details of the prophecy being fulfilled) . Tyre would be as uninhabitable as other desolate cities. It would be covered over by the watery deep. And, as is known to occur coastlines change so that after 2500 years one could expect the specific site to be lost to modern day observers since its covered over by sand, land, and water. Trying to excavate under the current city to see if there are traces of the mainland portion of the ancient Phoenician city is highly unlikely as it would involve tearing through settlements. People generally don't like their homes and business destroyed to reach what? Maybe some stones and pottery shards of the ancient Phoenician city?

Good Lord how many nations and assaults and fulfillment of the components in the prophecy does it take for some people to get the picture. Yes, the prophecy involving the nations including the Babylonians was fulfilled. Certainly the modern city of Tyre cant even be said to have been rebuilt since the modern city's streets, edificies, infrastructure bears no connection, zero, with the ancient Phoenician city which is dead and buried.
The prophecy failed TWICE. Nebby did not capture Tyre and Alexander rebuilt it. The prophecy explains what Nebby is going to do, hence the reference to 'HE' He didn't do any of it. Tyre stands today where it has always stood. All explained above. Prophecy failed...just like his prophecy about Egypt.

Quote:
Trying to excavate under the current city to see if there are traces of the mainland portion of the ancient Phoenician city is highly unlikely as it would involve tearing through settlements. People generally don't like their homes and business destroyed to reach what? Maybe some stones and pottery shards of the ancient Phoenician city?
Excellent! So you concede that the present Tyre is above Phoenician Tyre. In other words...REBUILT. Tyre was rebuilt just like many destroyed cities from WWII were rebuilt. London and Berlin were rebuilt in the same places and called the same...just like Tyre was.
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Old 04-12-2019, 08:38 AM
 
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Reputation: 4985
Precisely, old chestnut. The prophecy is ..well not clear exactly, but understandable. It was going to be scraped clear (which Nebuchadnezzar did not do, nor even Alexander, but he did scrape clear the landward side to build his causeway). It was never going to be rebuilt as a city again. Not its' walled splendour, not its' seaborne power.

But it was. It was rebuilt pretty soon, and doubtless the walls, because a later Macedonian ruler had to besiege the city all over again. Though with the causeway built, it would be easier to bring up siege -engines. And it was still 'queen of the seas'. The Phoenecian trading empire was still intact and Tyre was part of it and stayed so until the Punic war undermined it. Even then, Tyre was still standing and trading, though, when the Romans took over it surely started to decline. It would take an archaeological study (1) to find out the process by which the fortress fell into ruin and the silting up of the causeway allowed the land -side city to expand. But the fact is that the whole site -island, causeway and land -side is all covered by a city, which is still significant. It doesn't even matter that the name is not quite the same. It has never (other than short times) been non existent. The prophecy fails.

It's just the same with Babylon. The prophecy requires that it become ruined and abandoned. That did not happen even when the Persians took over. It became the capital of The Persian satrapy of Babylon. Alexander made it his capital. It continued as Persian capital after the destruction of Susa (there's a prophecy, if you like (2) and was of course where the 'Magi' were supposed to have come from.

It continued into the later Roman empire and only started to decline when the Sassanids built a new capital at Ctesiphon.

The point is that the present condition of Babylon doesn't fulfil that prophecy and the present passing - off as 'Sur' not being the same city (even if anyone other than those determined to fake the bible Work no matter how would buy that argument) does not alter the fact that Tyre was up and running pretty much as before, up until the fall of Carthage, and probably even after that, and never mind the prophecy.

(1) and if our pal hd4me knew anything about archaeology, he'd know that you can do a lot in even built -up cities, when a house -foundation is dug, power or supply lines are put in or just somebody finds some coins in their back garden. Tyre from the bronze -age up to today is no doubt recovered in bits and samples from under modern Sur, and, as pointed out, shows that it was rebuilt. Almost within a few years.

(2) it's rather interesting that Alexander's destruction of Susa, doesn't even appear in the Bible, no doubt because the Persians were regarded as the hand of God in releasing the Jews from captivity and the Jews lives almost free under Persia, so what were they being punished for, hey? It's all of a piece with the dubious account of the Assyrian siege oi Jerusalem, and not a word about sack of the big judean city of..dammit...mind's a blank..I can never spell it anyway..before that.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-12-2019 at 08:56 AM..
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