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Old 04-12-2019, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
The Tyre prophecy referred to Ezekiel's promise that Nebuchadnezzar would completely destroy Tyre and it would never be rebuilt. Nebby did not destroy Tyre as the prophecy claimed he would...he didnít even capture it. He laid siege to the island city for 13 years before coming to a compromise. As for Tyre never being rebuilt, it is today, the second most populated city in Lebanon.

Why do Christians not consider this 'prophecy' to have failed?
Why didn't you put the scripture up?
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
The Tyre prophecy referred to Ezekiel's promise that Nebuchadnezzar would completely destroy Tyre and it would never be rebuilt. Nebby did not destroy Tyre as the prophecy claimed he would...he didnít even capture it. He laid siege to the island city for 13 years before coming to a compromise. As for Tyre never being rebuilt, it is today, the second most populated city in Lebanon.

Why do Christians not consider this 'prophecy' to have failed?
This is because the only real prophecies are SPIRITUAL ones, NOT worldly, historical, or carnal ones. (That means the only real prophecies refer to what occurs within the minds of believers in God as they evolve their understanding of God.) All this historicity is interesting but quite irrelevant.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Precisely, old chestnut. The prophecy is ..well not clear exactly, but understandable. It was going to be scraped clear (which Nebuchadnezzar did not do, nor even Alexander, but he did scrape clear the landward side to build his causeway). It was never going to be rebuilt as a city again. Not its' walled splendour, not its' seaborne power.

But it was. It was rebuilt pretty soon, and doubtless the walls, because a later Macedonian ruler had to besiege the city all over again. Though with the causeway built, it would be easier to bring up siege -engines. And it was still 'queen of the seas'. The Phoenecian trading empire was still intact and Tyre was part of it and stayed so until the Punic war undermined it. Even then, Tyre was still standing and trading, though, when the Romans took over it surely started to decline. It would take an archaeological study (1) to find out the process by which the fortress fell into ruin and the silting up of the causeway allowed the land -side city to expand. But the fact is that the whole site -island, causeway and land -side is all covered by a city, which is still significant. It doesn't even matter that the name is not quite the same. It has never (other than short times) been non existent. The prophecy fails.

It's just the same with Babylon. The prophecy requires that it become ruined and abandoned. That did not happen even when the Persians took over. It became the capital of The Persian satrapy of Babylon. Alexander made it his capital. It continued as Persian capital after the destruction of Susa (there's a prophecy, if you like (2) and was of course where the 'Magi' were supposed to have come from.

It continued into the later Roman empire and only started to decline when the Sassanids built a new capital at Ctesiphon.

The point is that the present condition of Babylon doesn't fulfil that prophecy and the present passing - off as 'Sur' not being the same city (even if anyone other than those determined to fake the bible Work no matter how would buy that argument) does not alter the fact that Tyre was up and running pretty much as before, up until the fall of Carthage, and probably even after that, and never mind the prophecy.

(1) and if our pal hd4me knew anything about archaeology, he'd know that you can do a lot in even built -up cities, when a house -foundation is dug, power or supply lines are put in or just somebody finds some coins in their back garden. Tyre from the bronze -age up to today is no doubt recovered in bits and samples from under modern Sur, and, as pointed out, shows that it was rebuilt. Almost within a few years.

(2) it's rather interesting that Alexander's destruction of Susa, doesn't even appear in the Bible, no doubt because the Persians were regarded as the hand of God in releasing the Jews from captivity and the Jews lives almost free under Persia, so what were they being punished for, hey? It's all of a piece with the dubious account of the Assyrian siege oi Jerusalem, and not a word about sack of the big judean city of..dammit...mind's a blank..I can never spell it anyway..before that.
Quite so old sprout. And in fact it is still called Tyre. 'Sur' I believe is the Arabic name for Tyre. Odd too that the apologists want to claim that it was never rebuilt when their own Bible tells them that their Jesus and Paul visited Tyre.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Why didn't you put the scripture up?
You mean the prophecy?
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
Subsequent "nations" ransacked the city including the island portion by Alexander the Great. He used rubble and trees and dirt from the mainland portion of the city to build a land bridge. By the way, that is also mentioned in prophecy...the stones, timber, and soil would be cast in the midst of the water. He did eventually reach the island city and devastated it too. He's not the only one but also Romans, Syrians, Egyptians, etc also at one time or another contributed to the assault on Tyre.
See post 12. I have shown where 'HE' is refering to Nebby and 'THEY' is refering to his army.

English, like all language, has structure and where a passage is talking about one subject (Nebby), it does not suddenly veer off to talk about something else (other nations), in the middle of the passage.
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Old Yesterday, 07:32 AM
 
37,630 posts, read 10,202,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
See post 12. I have shown where 'HE' is referring to Nebby and 'THEY' is referring to his army.

English, like all language, has structure and where a passage is talking about one subject (Nebby), it does not suddenly veer off to talk about something else (other nations), in the middle of the passage.
True, but I know what he means. The prophecy as it stands makes no sense if related to the attack by Nebuchadnezzar (I don't know him well enough to call him Nebby), but it does make sense if, as hd4me suggests, one adds in Alexander's use of rubble from the mainland city to make the causeway.

It is all a bit odd as it looks like one attack is being talked about, and one can argue for ever whether 'many nations' means a Babylonian army with contingents from other nations, or a succession of attacks by various nations.

Whatever, the claim that it was never rebuilt is just false, and that's the long and short of it. We needn't trouble ourselves too much about evasions like the destroyed structures were never put up again. Who would seriously say that Modern Rome isn't still the 'Eternal City' even though it is totally unlike the old one?
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Old Yesterday, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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That's not what I mean my dear old scrot. I'm objecting to the apologist argument that follows....the argument that says that 'they' is refering to 'other nations.


Indeed thus says the Lord GOD:
I am bringing up against Tyre
from the north, Nebuchadnezzar,
King of Babylon, king of kings,
with horses and chariots, with cavalry,
and a mighty horde of troops.
Your daughter cities on the mainland
he shall slay with the sword.
He shall build a siege wall around you,
throw up a ramp against you,
and raise his shields about you.
9He shall pound your walls with battering-rams
and break down your towers with his axes.

then, back to 'many nations'

12They shall plunder your wealth
and pillage your goods;
They will tear down your walls
and demolish your splendid houses.
Your stones, timbers, and debris
they will cast into the sea.

I say that is describing what the aforementioned Nebby and his army is going to do to Tyre. To suddenly switch to talking about what 'other nations' are going to do Tyre in the middle of that is completely out of place.
For the apologists argument to hold water, I would expect it to run something like...

9He shall pound your walls with battering-rams
and break down your towers with his axes.
Then, other nations will plunder your wealth....

But it doesn't run like that. The passage starts by describing Nebby and what his army consists of (horses and chariots, with cavalry and a mighty horde of troops) and then goes on to describe what 'he' (Nebby) and his army (they) are going to do in to destroy Tyre. To claim that 'they' is referring to the other nations that are mentioned at the beginning when it it comes smack bang in the middle of a passage that is describing what Nebby and his army are going to do is pure apologetics.

But as you say old horse, at the end of the day all that matters is the historical facts and those facts are that Nebby didn't do what the prophecy predicted and although Alexander did, he rebuilt it...as did others that came later.

Last edited by Rafius; Yesterday at 10:44 AM..
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Old Today, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
You mean the prophecy?
The whole chapter in king James version, just saying, you begin talking about scripture but you don't put the source up, not everyone knows what your talking about.
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Old Today, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
The whole chapter in king James version, just saying, you begin talking about scripture but you don't put the source up, not everyone knows what your talking about.
Well the prophecy is there in post 12. What more would anyone need?
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Old Today, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,336 posts, read 4,752,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Well the prophecy is there in post 12. What more would anyone need?
Nothing you old badger, I mean next time, and use KJV as to have no issues and post it in the op, just flappin my gums, gotta do something and being that I am vice president of the Atheists lovers society, you have to do what I say, or how else will this marriage work?
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