What is the difference between LDS and Baptist (divorce, bishop, contradictions)

[urbanlemur]

God certainly could do it all and He did 2,000 years ago and look what they did to Jesus...

[coolcats]

Originally Posted by wildberries61

Since you brought it up again maybe you or others can explain these things to me. Okay, maybe they were not denied members but with this kind of thinking below what black person would want to come to the church.............

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)

John Taylor, President of the Church

“And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;...” Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304



Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th LDS President

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.... we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren—children of God—not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness. " The Way to Perfection, pages 101-102. http://www.barncow.com/curseofcain/

The Church has maintained that the 1978 revelation giving blacks the priesthood was not due to any form of public pressure but was simply God’s will that blacks should not be given the priesthood until 1978.

Consider the following events that directly proceeded the 1978 revelation:

Under President Jimmy Carter, Brigham Young University and possibly the LDS Church itself was in danger of losing their tax exempt status if they continued to discriminate against blacks.


Members and missionaries the world over were embarrassed and ashamed at what the church taught in Sunday School about blacks. The members were not racist and did not like believing in and teaching racist doctrine.

The Church was becoming a global church. How could they possibly succeed in Africa and countries with large black populations?

Can any of you tell me if this is how the Book of Mormon reads......
Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. (Joe Smith calls dark skinned people ugly, filthy, lazy, and perverts.)

1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.



3 Nephi 2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.

You can get angry or you can defend your beliefs. I have had many debates with people questioning my faith and I have held stead fast on my Christian beliefs and if you believe in your church then you need to do the same and not feel you are under attack.
A good Christian will defend not cover up the actions of the church!!! If these actions in any way are false every church needs to be called upon. For most they act like bringing blacks into priesthood since 1978 was a long time ago. Do you realize women were able to vote before blacks were excepted in your church?

Let’s start out with the obvious – you pasted that from some anti-Mormon site somewhere. Someone spent hours culling teachings of the 19th century LDS church and selectively pulled three statements that look really bad. Did that person fairly pull out statements that were not racist? Hardly likely.

Now getting to the meat of the matter. The statements by the LDS leaders do seem racist don’t they? There is some controversy about whether those statements were even said, Have you taken the time to look at the primary historical documents? I haven’t. But I’ll concede it is more likely than not that those statements are actual quotes found by someone who mined from the volumes of LDS teachings (and there are probably thousands of pages on historical record)

In that case we have to look at the context of when they were said. Those statements were said in the 19th and early 20th century, when most of American society was grossly racist. I bet you could easily find statements from other religious leaders at the time that were equally bad. It is important to realize that in a racist society, it is entirely possible that some church leaders would say things like that. But we can separate when a church leader is speaking his own opinion and when he is speaking in the name of God.

As for the Book of Mormon scriptures. It does say that there was a group of people who became wicked. God darkened their skin as a way for the remaining righteous people to spot these wicked people for their own self-defense, as these enemies were constantly seeking to destroy them. But, whoever posted those scriptures neglected to give a full and fair accounting. For example in 2 Nephi 26:33 we read:

“For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”

Sounds pretty inclusive doesn’t it? That’s the problem I have with a lot of anti-Mormon literature. It is intellectually dishonest in its selectivity. It also becomes an echo-chamber effect with people repeating what other anti-Mormons have said.

[coolcats]

Originally Posted by wildberries61

If we believe it takes people to spread the word then aren't we denying God's ability to do all?

Not at all. If that was the case, why did Christ ordain apostles before his death and resurrection and instruct them to go forth to the world with his message?

[urbanlemur]

Besides, as true followers of Christ, He calls us to do like coolcats explains. It not only enables us to do the work He has called us to do, it builds us spiritually as go out and prepares us. We grow stronger in His Word and in Him by doing so.

[urbanlemur]

Also, lest we lose track of ourselves, we have to remember that the end goal of evangelism is not merely to produce a soul count or to raise church attendance numbers. It is being a loving vessel commited to communicating God's grace to someone, a person, a soul that God already knows and loves very much.
Souls are not just arbitrary statistics stored in a metal vault somewhere. 2 Corinthians 5:16 says: "From now on we regard no one from a worldy point of view." Everyone needs to be percieved from an eternal perspective and that everyone is unique in their own way.

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

I'm merely showing you what the Scripture says. This is God's Word, not mine.

That's not what I asked. I am asking for your personal opinion.

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by wildberries61

Since you brought it up again maybe you or others can explain these things to me. Okay, maybe they were not denied members but with this kind of thinking below what black person would want to come to the church.............

To answer your first question, millions of African Americans. If you watched the PBS special, then you know Africans found LDS literature and began forming Churches without Church authorization. In effect, they initiated the proper time for bestowing the Priesthood. This did not happen overnight. Church authorities were in contact with Africans desiring the Gospel starting in the early 60s and it wasn’t until 1978 that Church leaders believed they had received appropriate revelation from God to bring the Church to Africa and begin ordaining males to the Priesthood.

One last note, every, I repeat, every African who wanted to join the Church knew Church Canon regarding African males and the Priesthood, and they still wanted to join, even before 1978.

Originally Posted by wildberries61

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)

I like this one because Brigham was not talking about physical death. He was talking about death pertaining to spiritual matters. This was a talk regarding the practice of slavery and the impending War Between the States. I am sure you are aware of the fact that slave owners often had sex with their slaves. None of them died on the spot, well, not unless they were murdered. Next, Brigham is still correct. When laws are transgressed, there will be spiritual death. Of course, repentance is always available.

Originally Posted by wildberries61

John Taylor, President of the Church

“And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;...” Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304.

I don’t know whether you read the entire discourse, but President Taylor was not saying descendants of Ham’s wife were of the Devil. He stated the original curse upon Cain was carried through that lineage. The descendants of Cain were Canaanites and they did not practice the Gospel. Those practices had to be maintained to give men and women choices to obey the Gospel or not.

Originally Posted by wildberries61

Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th LDS President

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.... we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren—children of God—not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness. " The Way to Perfection, pages 101-102. http://www.barncow.com/curseofcain/

My, you have been busy. OK, I have already explained most of this. As you can see, President Smith called the descendants of Cain our brethren and stated he hoped someday they would enjoy the full blessings of the Gospel.

Originally Posted by wildberries61

Consider the following events that directly proceeded the 1978 revelation:

Under President Jimmy Carter, Brigham Young University and possibly the LDS Church itself was in danger of losing their tax exempt status if they continued to discriminate against blacks.

Yes, President Carter threatened all Churches with losing their tax exempt status for any form of discrimination under the 1968 Civil Rights Act. It fizzled because many Churches discriminate against women and the Priesthood, and the 1968 CRA prohibits discrimination based on sex also. It was “much ado about nothing.”

Originally Posted by wildberries61

Members and missionaries the world over were embarrassed and ashamed at what the church taught in Sunday School about blacks. The members were not racist and did not like believing in and teaching racist doctrine.

Yes, most, if not all, of us did not like the prohibition. I in particular did not like it. A couple who had taken care of me since my birth and who I considered my other parents were African Americans. I loved them as my own parents, but I still joined the Church.

Next, nothing regarding African Americans was taught in Sunday School or anywhere else. It was not a topic of doctrinal discussion.

Last, if we had racist doctrine, why were we persecuted in Missouri for our Church stance against slavery? Why would we allow other minorities, some of which I have already pointed out were as dark as African males, to hold the Priesthood? In fact why would we allow any non-whites to join the Church?

Originally Posted by wildberries61

The Church was becoming a global church. How could they possibly succeed in Africa and countries with large black populations?

I have already explained this above.

Originally Posted by wildberries61

Can any of you tell me if this is how the Book of Mormon reads......
Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. (Joe Smith calls dark skinned people ugly, filthy, lazy, and perverts.)

It’s close enough, and by the way, your skirt is showing, Wildberries. The use of Joe Smith is a common derogatory term, so your attitude is visible.

Yes, the Lamanites, became a very dangerous group. Their behavior was filthy and loathsome, not them. The term filthy is not Joseph’s, it is from the Book of Mormon, but you don’t believe it’s scripture, so I am wasting my time explaining this to you.

Originally Posted by wildberries61

1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

Nephi is talking about you. This land was ordained for you. He is also lamenting about how his people fell away. Now, I am tired and I won’t go through the rest of the scriptures. Get a Book of Mormon and read it through completely. After reading it completely, if you have anymore questions, write me later.

Originally Posted by wildberries61

A good Christian will defend not cover up the actions of the church!!! If these actions in any way are false every church needs to be called upon. For most they act like bringing blacks into priesthood since 1978 was a long time ago. Do you realize women were able to vote before blacks were excepted in your church?

I think I have answered your questions. Now, make up your own mind and go your own way.

[urbanlemur]

My personal opinion is that I go with what God says because when it comes to things pertaining to Scripture, I am merely follow His lead to the best of my ability. His ways are not my ways and I cannot know fully what He intends except for that which is written in Scripture. I do know that He wishes for none to perish and for all to have everlasting life with Him and has and does make Himself known to all.

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

I can't speak for what happened in the past and surely the loss of life regardless is terrible. No problems there. However, in Galatians 1:6-8; "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preaced to you, let him be accursed."

That's an excellent scripture right there. wow.

Also, those on the 'those who never heard' topic...that is NOT what I was asking in my hypothetical situation. What I was asking, in a nut shell, is if that guy has to have the BOM to acheive full heavenly status. Sergeant said, no..that was all I needed.

I'm very comfortable with God being able to judge/forgive those who he chooses based on their exposure to Him or the lack thereof.

My hypothetical situation is dealing with Baptists vs. LDS...the topic of this thread.

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by mollysmiles

I agree with Serg....I would do the same. It's not that we're incapable of seeing "why" and "how"....but we disagree. We don't hold up the righteous of the Church to make others feel bad. We're telling you what we think. Others perceive it as a threat, or an insult. We can only try to tell you in our own way why we believe what we do.

Molly and SergeantL, are you saying that if someone did show up preaching a different gospel based on their claims of revelation from God, you'd actually consider it?