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Every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of god.
-- Thomas Jefferson, arguing that Chrisian exclusivism (via the idea of an exclusive revelation) degrades the credibility of the Christian religion, in a letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823 (capitalization of god per original)
Kaiser, TJ made some great statements like the one above which could make someone think he might have been an atheist. I don't know what he really thought but he was certainly a brilliant man.
Sadly, I do not think that the US is anywhere close. As a case in point, look at GWB's executive order killing funding for stem cell research, or the movements to forbid gay marriage.
It still goes back to the argument that T. J. did not like organized religion.
Look at the hypocrisy of much of it! According to the T. J. Bible he believe din God fiercly, but did not believe in any religion of the day.
The quote you said was from T.J. reads "Every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of god."
What he was saying here in modern words is this ( and aside from being my own boss, I am a historian) ; " Every Christian church that exists today are quite atheist in their claim that unless "they" receive some sign (revelation) then that means no God can possibly exist."
T. J. was saying that people do not believe God can exist unless they are given a sign! Of course, if God gave man a sign then there would be no room for faith, and if faith did not exist then there would be no room for growth spiritually or otherwise.
Last edited by kaiser; 06-24-2007 at 05:29 PM..
Reason: being more specific
-MOD CUT- There is room in this nation for people of ALL religions, or NO religion. And if YOU don't like THAT, you can move to a country where Christianity is the state religion! Oh yes:
Now that that stupidity is straightened out, I can say that I have read much of the works of Jefferson as well. My (oral, gulp) final presentation for one of my Spanish classes asked the open ended, "If you could meet anyone in history, who would it be and why? (I don't see how this applied very much to the class in hand, but perhaps they merely wanted a demonstration in oral capacity...) I answered Thomas Jefferson, because he clearly never desired a state religion. A couple of my favourite quotes:
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
Christian or not, I hope we can all appreciate the wisdom of Jefferson and understand that he was correct, that maintaining a free, secular government is vital to ensuring the rights of everyone in a democratic nation.
A FREE SECULAR GOVERNMENT...YES...but that also means that Christians have rights to their beliefs as well...just as much as anyone else. They should be allowed to pray in schools and worship God just like the next guy of any other religion. Unfortunately it's getting to where the FREE SECULAR GOVERNMENT is inhibiting Christians from their faith and worship. Sheesh...even Merry Christmas has to be Happy Holidays! It's CHRISTmas....but I digress!
Hmm, well if you'd rather we said "Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, and any other holiday that you celebrate which falls around this time," okay... ???
I don't see how America's (supposedly) secularized government is inhibiting from their own, personal faith and worship. Of course you can pray in school.
I am, as I said previously, an agnostic because I think atheism is just as much a matter of faith as religious belief.
I have resented, since first grade, having to say "Under God" in the Pledge of
Allegiance. Where did the schools get the idea that they could force me to acknowledge that there was a God that I was “under”.
I just did not say that phrase when it was chanted. Still don’t.
I’ll leave my rant about forcing a Pledge out of a 6-year-old child for the political forum.
I am, as I said previously, an agnostic because I think atheism is just as much a matter of faith as religious belief.
You seem to be confusing atheism in general with strong atheism in particular.
If by "agnostic" you mean "not sure," you are in fact an atheist. There are only two options: Belief in God. No belief in God. If you aren't sure, you have no belief in God (at least at this point), so that is considered atheist.
(Sorry, but these definitions are one of my pet peeves.)
A FREE SECULAR GOVERNMENT...YES...but that also means that Christians have rights to their beliefs as well...just as much as anyone else. They should be allowed to pray in schools and worship God just like the next guy of any other religion. Unfortunately it's getting to where the FREE SECULAR GOVERNMENT is inhibiting Christians from their faith and worship. Sheesh...even Merry Christmas has to be Happy Holidays! It's CHRISTmas....but I digress!
Students are allowed to pray in school.
No one is prohibited from saying "Merry Christmas."
The establishment and free exercise clauses are distinct, though many try to blur the distinction.
No one is prohibited from saying "Merry Christmas."
The establishment and free exercise clauses are distinct, though many try to blur the distinction.
I beg to differ; back in my home town a kid ( that my family knows well) got suspended for praying over his lunch before eating it.
Now, I am not one to pray publicly over my food, but I do pray in my head over it. Even so, To punish the kid? Come on now!
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Good ol' TJ
