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Thats why I find it so amusing that so many fundies on here now think you are likely to 'see the light' and join their camp.They miss the point that there are just as many if not more holes in their beloved stories if read as scientific or historical fact.
Who is trying to get him to "join their camp" -no one I know!
And what holes are in the Holy Word of God? Start a thread and let me see your specific accusations [your own, and not tomes written by those who libel the Word of God that you may just be reading], instead of just general accusations, or else retract the slanderous statement that the Holy Word of God is "full of holes".
...I care little about who's scholars are better. I care whose scholarship is better, meaning which positions have the best arguments and evidence. I am not impressed by degrees or verbosity; I am impressed by sound reasoning and a proper understanding of the implications and limitations of evidence.
Yes, you and I both have given the dear readers the link to FAIRLDS enough times. I encourage people to read your side, but you do not return the favor. I want people to read FAIRLDS because I believe that once a person reads both sides they will be able to easily see where the evidence and best arguments will lead them.
I'm ok with that, too. But, that is not the current topic here. I am not trying to prove that humans don't have a soul, which I acknowledge is impossible to prove. Even if I could demonstrate that every mental function is performed by the biological brain, there still could be a spirit behind the scenes. I am not trying to show that whatever you consider is evidence of God does not actually have to be evidence of god, etc.
We are talking about changes to the Book of Mormon. Have I accurately stated true facts about changes to the BoM? Yes. Does it paint a different picture than the one your posts would have led someone to believe? I believe it would. I think if people what to learn the truth about Mormonism, they should read both the words of believers and apostates.
I suppose I should not generalize about the beliefs/disbeliefs of atheists, yours seem to be different than most, probably leaning much more towards agnosticism.
My point is that personally I am not interested in seeking scholarly opinons about the Book of Mormon or about God to decide what is true and what isn't. What one scholar says in response to another scholar is not going to make a change in me such as you allowed to happen to you when you gave up your faith and put your trust in intellectual learning instead.
The test of the Book of Mormon, as you should well know, is not by appealing to the ever shifting opinions of scholars, it's a spiritual test.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." Moroni 10: 4
I, and I suppose millions of others have applied that spiritual test, and have found out for ourselves that it's true. That's the strength of the LDS Church, that living individual testimony gained from God. (Living because it's always present and ever renewing for those who are true and faithful to their covenants and who keep God's commandments, thus having the Holy Ghost as their constant companion and guide.)
You have swapped that for always arbitrary and ever changing arm of flesh analysis and opinions. (Which work well for physical things but are not adequate tools for things of the spirit, which is what religion is all about.)
So what if there have been changes to the Book of Mormon? GOD told me that it's true!
I suppose I should not generalize about the beliefs/disbeliefs of atheists, yours seem to be different than most, probably leaning much more towards agnosticism.
My point is that personally I am not interested in seeking scholarly opinons about the Book of Mormon or about God to decide what is true and what isn't. What one scholar says in response to another scholar is not going to make a change in me such as you allowed to happen to you when you gave up your faith and put your trust in intellectual learning instead.
The test of the Book of Mormon, as you should well know, is not by appealing to the ever shifting opinions of scholars, it's a spiritual test.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." Moroni 10: 4
I, and I suppose millions of others have applied that spiritual test, and have found out for ourselves that it's true. That's the strength of the LDS Church, that living individual testimony gained from God. (Living because it's always present and ever renewing for those who are true and faithful to their covenants and who keep God's commandments, thus having the Holy Ghost as their constant companion and guide.)
You have swapped that for always arbitrary and ever changing arm of flesh analysis and opinions. (Which work well for physical things but are not adequate tools for things of the spirit, which is what religion is all about.)
So what if there have been changes to the Book of Mormon? GOD told me that it's true!
I am an atheist because I believe there is no god. I am also agnostic (the terms are not mutually exclusive) because I believe no one can know whether there is a god. It is false to think a person must declare that they know with certainty that there is no god to be considered an atheist. In fact, hardly any atheists I know would declare such a thing. Most atheists are logical enough to know that it is logically impossible to prove that there is no god. Some atheists have invented beings such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn to show that no one can prove they don't exist either.
I asked of God and I got the answer that was promised. Did you really read my original post in the thread "My Journey Out Of Mormonism"? I have experienced what I formerly called "answered prayers", "priesthood miracles", burning in the bosom, "fulfilled personal prophecies", etc. I believed I had a personal relationship with God. I declared that I knew Him, not just about Him. I was just as "converted" as any Stake President you would ever meet. Dude, I know exactly what you are talking about. I have been there and done that. I have fully experienced everything, every spiritual high and spiritual witness, a regular Mormon can experience. As best I can tell from all that I have read that you have written, I virtually was you 4 years ago. It is like talking to my old self. I was as spiritually mature as they come. I taught at the freaking MTC; and attended the temple once a week while doing it. You could never find a more sincere believer than I was.
Re-read my exit story. If you want further proof, I'm sure I can find written copies of testimonies I bore in the past. You would still feel the "Spirit" strongly as you read it. I could call forth members from by old wards that considered me a spiritual giant and a scriptural encyclopedia. I gave some of the most beautiful prayers and priesthood blessings you ever heard. I could still do it, if I got myself back into that frame of mind. I "knew" Heavenly Father and He knew me, so I thought. I knew the "Spirit" and I knew how to access it and invite it in a room.
And when I gave a talk, I could preach with such power and emotion and conviction, people "knew" that I "knew" and believed what I was talking about. I never would have bragged about my spirituality back then, either, but I have no problems with it now.
I have been where you and countless other Mormons have been, spiritually speaking. I had experiences that touched me so deeply and filled me to overflowing with love for Jesus Christ and gratitude for the sacrifice he made for me. I have forgotten none of this. I can recreate those feelings right now as I type about them.
The reason I no longer believe is not because I missed out on those experiences, I had them thousands of times. I understand them differently now. They do not mean what I thought they meant.
I did not lose my faith. I wisely quit investing faith in something I learned was not true. How long should a Scientologist continue to put their faith into Scientology. Should they continue after they know it is not true? No, that is foolish. There is no reward, nor is it noble or honorable to keep faith in something that is not true. There is no disgrace in me pulling my faith from Mormonism, because it isn't true. I know that. You don't, so you look at my apostasy totally different from me. I know your perspective because I had your perspective not that long ago.
There are a lot of things that are unknowable that are beyond the reach of scientific investigation. But, some things are knowable and are as plain as the nose on your face. The Book of Abraham is one such thing. Now you can go off on the frailities of men, blah, blah, but in my mind that is nothing more than an excuse to not really look into the issue. One has the luxury of philosophically pining about epistemology when one has not actually encountered the evidence. The evidence was strong enough to force me to reconsider every spiritual experience I ever had; it is that strong. I sometimes wonder why I bother trying to explain this to you as it would have been just as pointless if I tried to tell my old self these things.
I understand why you think I am wrong and where you think I went wrong. I get it. I am satisfied that I have done things right. I am glad I was as deep into Mormonism as I was, because that is the only way that I could say that I know that path, because I lived it. I understand religious people more than many of my atheist peers. I understand faith (Oh, I am sure you are thinking I don't). I understand "spiritual witnesses", which can be incomprehensible to those who have not experienced them. I am intimately familiar with the Mormon worldview, how a Mormon interprets and thinks about things. Granted, individual Mormons differ, but there still is a general shared worldview.
I get it; I really do. You will probably assume that I don't because if I really got it, I'd still be Mormon. But, one can understand and still not agree.
Who is trying to get him to "join their camp" -no one I know!
And what holes are in the Holy Word of God? Start a thread and let me see your specific accusations [your own, and not tomes written by those who libel the Word of God that you may just be reading], instead of just general accusations, or else retract the slanderous statement that the Holy Word of God is "full of holes".
I dont intend to retract anything,if God feels that I have slandered him thats between me and him......and no concern of yours. To attempt to show you anything is a fools errand.The fact that you believe that the sun revolves around the earth while God sits on a throne in the middle of the sun watching us shows me that you are deaf and blind to anything that science has revealed in the last 2 thousand years.Many people who read as much as you do are capable of finding holes on their own....or you could take on the many posters on the many other threads on the topic....it takes too much time and typing for me...and you would just ignore whatever I typed anyway or continue yelling about lies and slander .......and you would still find time to lie and slander the mormons
I am an atheist because I believe there is no god. I am also agnostic (the terms are not mutually exclusive) because I believe no one can know whether there is a god....
I have fully experienced everything, every spiritual high and spiritual witness, a regular Mormon can experience... attended the temple once a week while doing it. You could never find a more sincere believer than I was...
I did not lose my faith.I wisely quit investing faith in something I learned was not true.
I understand very clearly what happened to you and why it happened. No matter how enlightened a person is, if they pridefully choose to wander off on strange paths and follow the ever beckoning illusions and temptations of the flesh, they will arrive at a much different destination than had they clung inexorably to the iron rod and stayed safety in the fold of Jesus Christ, trusting in him, to the end of their mortal probation.
You failed to endure to the end and now you are trying to fight against Christ and to persuade others to follow you instead of him. It's a typical progression, there is nothing unique or novel about you and what you have done at all. With respect for your right to choose your own paths during the precious few years alloted to you and all of us for our one time mortal experience, you QUIT, you allowed yourself to be deceived by your brain and the musings of arm of flesh scholars, and you GAVE UP!
I know you are now like someone who has jumped off a ship in mid ocean then cast away the lifebelt that was tossed by a loved one on the ship that is now swiftly moving away from you. So the following scriptures will be meaningless to you, you don't accept the word of God anymore, you have rebelled and hardened your heart against your Father in Heaven, chosen a different master to follow.
But perhaps the following scriptures may be helpful for those who stand in danger of giving in to your arm of flesh persuasions and to be tempted to also abandon their faith in God and Jesus Christ as you have done, and wander off in crooked paths following blind leaders, with eternal consequences.
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24: 13
"And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.... Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." 2 Nephi 31: 16: 20
"I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end." Moroni 8: 3
And there is another consideration for those whose awareness was once fully enlightened but who allowed themselves to be persuaded by the flesh and fell, abandoning all they once knew and valued as sacred, and then in effect embarked upon a cause to fight against Christ and persuade others that the sun is not shining when they know it is:
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which is willfully denying Christ after having received a perfect knowledge of him from the Holy Ghost, is the unforgivable sin (Matt. 12: 31-32; Mark 3: 28-29; D&C 132: 27).
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12: 31-32
There may still be a way back for some who have strayed, but the safe ship is moving ever further away and the dark ocean is deep and always reluctant to give up its victims...
I know that Jesus Christ lives - and in him is eternal salvation!
I understand very clearly what happened to you and why it happened. No matter how enlightened a person is, if they pridefully choose to wander off on strange paths and follow the ever beckoning illusions and temptations of the flesh, they will arrive at a much different destination than had they clung inexorably to the iron rod and stayed safety in the fold of Jesus Christ, trusting in him, to the end of their mortal probation.
Please explain what you mean here, because according to Heuff's posts, he is a happily married man, and was when he was LDS as well...so I don't understand, because I am reading this as if he found a woman and was tempted....?
You failed to endure to the end and now you are trying to fight against Christ and to persuade others to follow you instead of him. It's a typical progression, there is nothing unique or novel about you and what you have done at all. With respect for your right to choose your own paths during the precious few years alloted to you and all of us for our one time mortal experience, you QUIT, you allowed yourself to be deceived by your brain and the musings of arm of flesh scholars, and you GAVE UP!
?? Again, not understanding your point...As far as how I understand Heuff's posts so far, he is not trying to persuade anyone to follow anything...he is just simply stating his fact-finding mission and how it lead him to his current belief system.
But perhaps the following scriptures may be helpful for those who stand in danger of giving in to your arm of flesh persuasions and to be tempted to also abandon their faith in God and Jesus Christ as you have done, and wander off in crooked paths following blind leaders, with eternal consequences.
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24: 13 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God,he cannot be saved....Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." 2 Nephi 31: 16: 20
I know that Jesus Christ lives - and in him is eternal salvation!
Fair enough....and I, too, believe that in him is eternal salvation. But here's another take on to the end:
So one wonders what this “example” is. The one defining act of Christ is his death and resurrection. Christ died for the sins of the world.
“That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.” (2 Cor. 5:19 (ESV)
So tell me, how am I supposed to follow that example again? How am I to “take away the sins of the world” when I have so many sins of my own? Have any Mormons come back to life after three days in the tomb? If not, have they followed Christ’s example to the end? I think not. Christ is not an example, he is the savior of the world. There is a difference.[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
Fair enough....and I, too, believe that in him is eternal salvation. But here's another take on to the end:
So one wonders what this “example” is. The one defining act of Christ is his death and resurrection. Christ died for the sins of the world.
“That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.” (2 Cor. 5:19 (ESV)
So tell me, how am I supposed to follow that example again? How am I to “take away the sins of the world” when I have so many sins of my own? Have any Mormons come back to life after three days in the tomb? If not, have they followed Christ’s example to the end? I think not. Christ is not an example, he is the savior of the world. There is a difference.
It doesn't seem to me that the phrase "to the end" is what's really bothering you, but the degree to which we should look to Jesus Christ not only as our Savior but as an example. He told us how to treat our fellow men. He showed us by His example, what it means to turn the other cheek, what it means to forgive "seventy times seven," what it means to love our enemies. If we claim to have "faith in Christ," it is only logical that we should also be "faithful to Christ." This involves doing our best to keep His commandments. It doesn't involve our sacrificing our lives to atone for the sins of others. "Enduring to the end" means remaining faithful and obedient to Him throughout our lives and not simply declaring, "Lord! I believe!" and letting it go at that. It means walking the walk, and not just talking the talk.
You got that out of context to its biblical context and what Jesus said to whom and when.
The enduring to the end is for those who believe on the name of Jesus after mid tribulation, when Zion, as the personified woman in the star sign of Rev 12 is in hiding; and no human being on earth can be "born again" while the True Church, which is headquartered in heaven and exists in the members of it on earth at this time, and which is "Zion of the Spirit", is hidden from those on earth after the twelve thousand from each tribe of Israel is translated to their bodies made for glory, and go to Mount Zion of the heavenlies. There will not be one single born again believer in Christ existing on earth after that mid trib translation of the "firstfruits of the last harvest which is to come after the Millennial reign, until Jesus returns and grants eternal life to the elect Jews who remain on earth to repopulate it for the millennium, and the Gentile sheep who remain on the earth to populate it with the elect Jews, for the millennial Sabbath.
They who endured to the end of the tribulation will be saved when Jesus returns.
But for now, whosoever will repent and believe the One Gospel of Christ [which has no connection with the ever-evolving fable of Mormonism], will be saved immediately, and they will not have to wait for any "end", but they can wait for the rapture, so as to escape all the things coming on the face of the earth, as Jesus said they could if they "watched -living godly sober lives, and prayed" so they would be counted worthy to escape the coming tribulation.
I understand very clearly what happened to you and why it happened. No matter how enlightened a person is, if they pridefully choose to wander off on strange paths and follow the ever beckoning illusions and temptations of the flesh, they will arrive at a much different destination than had they clung inexorably to the iron rod and stayed safety in the fold of Jesus Christ, trusting in him, to the end of their mortal probation.
You failed to endure to the end and now you are trying to fight against Christ and to persuade others to follow you instead of him. It's a typical progression, there is nothing unique or novel about you and what you have done at all. With respect for your right to choose your own paths during the precious few years alloted to you and all of us for our one time mortal experience, you QUIT, you allowed yourself to be deceived by your brain and the musings of arm of flesh scholars, and you GAVE UP!
I know you are now like someone who has jumped off a ship in mid ocean then cast away the lifebelt that was tossed by a loved one on the ship that is now swiftly moving away from you. So the following scriptures will be meaningless to you, you don't accept the word of God anymore, you have rebelled and hardened your heart against your Father in Heaven, chosen a different master to follow.
But perhaps the following scriptures may be helpful for those who stand in danger of giving in to your arm of flesh persuasions and to be tempted to also abandon their faith in God and Jesus Christ as you have done, and wander off in crooked paths following blind leaders, with eternal consequences.
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24: 13
"And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.... Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." 2 Nephi 31: 16: 20
"I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end." Moroni 8: 3
And there is another consideration for those whose awareness was once fully enlightened but who allowed themselves to be persuaded by the flesh and fell, abandoning all they once knew and valued as sacred, and then in effect embarked upon a cause to fight against Christ and persuade others that the sun is not shining when they know it is:
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which is willfully denying Christ after having received a perfect knowledge of him from the Holy Ghost, is the unforgivable sin (Matt. 12: 31-32; Mark 3: 28-29; D&C 132: 27).
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12: 31-32
There may still be a way back for some who have strayed, but the safe ship is moving ever further away and the dark ocean is deep and always reluctant to give up its victims...
I know that Jesus Christ lives - and in him is eternal salvation!
I'll tell you what. If there is a god and he condemns me for not believing in something that the physical evidence demonstrates is false (because I am supposedly trusting in the arm of flesh), then that god is a b*****d, not worthy of respect, and I want nothing to do with him anyway. His priorities are messed up. There are qualities far more important and admirable than believing in something in spite of logic and physical evidence, such as kindness, altruism, being a good parent or friend, honesty, integrity, etc. Possessing those attributes should be the deciding factors that get one into heaven, not faith. Believing despite the physical evidence should be called dumb, and looked down on, because it makes you vulnerable to believe all kinds of false things.
I say again, if a god exists that condemns me for using the brain he supposedly gave me, even though I clothe the naked and feed the hungry, visit the inprisoned, take care of the widow, then I want nothing to do with him. Call me a son of perdition and send me to outer darkness, cause I have no respect for that.
I'll tell you what. If there is a god and he condemns me for not believing in something that the physical evidence demonstrates is false (because I am supposedly trusting in the arm of flesh), then that god is a b*****d, not worthy of respect, and I want nothing to do with him anyway. His priorities are messed up. There are qualities far more important and admirable than believing in something in spite of logic and physical evidence, such as kindness, altruism, being a good parent or friend, honesty, integrity, etc. Possessing those attributes should be the deciding factors that get one into heaven, not faith. Believing despite the physical evidence should be called dumb, and looked down on, because it makes you vulnerable to believe all kinds of false things.
I say again, if a god exists that condemns me for using the brain he supposedly gave me, even though I clothe the naked and feed the hungry, visit the inprisoned, take care of the widow, then I want nothing to do with him. Call me a son of perdition and send me to outer darkness, cause I have no respect for that.
That is so often where one ends up. Even though the Bible strongly implies that it's faith that matters, not works, one cannot believe that believing something will earn a ticket to hobnobbing with god for eternity while those who did not or could not hold a particular belief are going to burn.
In the end one is forced to say that, apart from not being in any particular religion, and not seeing the sense in worshipping Jesus, one cannot even give the Bible any credence. One may then still have a belief in Deist/Pantheist god, but religion, as such, is shredded, binned and forgotten.
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To attempt to show you anything is a fools errand.The fact that you believe that the sun revolves around the earth while God sits on a throne in the middle of the sun watching us shows me that you are deaf and blind to anything that science has revealed in the last 2 thousand years.Many people who read as much as you do are capable of finding holes on their own....or you could take on the many posters on the many other threads on the topic....it takes too much time and typing for me...and you would just ignore whatever I typed anyway or continue yelling about lies and slander .......and you would still find time to lie and slander the mormons
You failed to endure to the end!
