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Old 02-06-2010, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,645 posts, read 8,844,607 times
Reputation: 4431
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
You are so full of it. Thank God nobody believes a word you're saying. All you're good for around here, my dear, is comic relief.

 
Old 02-06-2010, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,645 posts, read 8,844,607 times
Reputation: 4431
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
You know that your Mormon doctrine is not Bible doctrine, but you pretend that you have something better.
Oh, that's really good, ysm. Whose Mormon doctrine are you talking about anyway? Chango's not even LDS! His last comment is proof that he dislikes us almost as much as you do!
 
Old 02-06-2010, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Way,Way Up On The Old East Coast
2,069 posts, read 909,938 times
Reputation: 995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Oh, that's really good, ysm. Chango's not even LDS! He hates the LDS almost as much as you do!
Katzpur !

I give you a great deal of credit for the outstanding efforts you make to get your excellent points across to some of these folks here on CDF whom absolutely refuse to even consider the great LDS wisdom that you so kindly offer !

Best of luck with your most daunting task !

Thanks / Lamar
 
Old 02-06-2010, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
11,125 posts, read 8,894,842 times
Reputation: 9988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Thanks a million, Chango. That was a real nice thing to say.
Sorry, I didn't mean you... I was talking about those other.. um...

Great, now I'm gonna dissapear in the middle of the night like all those other gentiles...

... But If you hook YSM too and let me keep my fingers I'll give him/her noogies until he/she shuts up about the whole thing.
 
Old 02-06-2010, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,645 posts, read 8,844,607 times
Reputation: 4431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Sorry, I didn't mean you... I was talking about those other.. um...
Okay. Just next time, name names, okay?
 
Old 02-07-2010, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 3,244,289 times
Reputation: 738
Rather than wade through all the posts to find answers, I am just going to ask new for me questions.
I am reading the Book of Mormon and I find odd things.
Now, please don't respond that these things are just part of the unknowable miracles, as that ain't no answer.

Laman had a sword of steel during the age of bronze, how?

Nephi has a vision in which he sees wars and rumors of wars, how does one see rumors of wars?

What is the Abominable Church?
 
Old 02-07-2010, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 1,254,542 times
Reputation: 989
Just so you know where I am coming from, I am a former Mormon.

You are right that steel did not exist during the time period the Book of Mormon claims. Mormon Apologists have come up with all kinds of weak explanations, none of which are satisfactory.

Here is a modern Mormon's (Stephen E. Robinson) explanation for Nephi's Abominable Church:
Quote:
Clearly, whatever denominational name we choose to give it, the earliest apostate church and the great and abominable church that Nephi and John describe are identical. The fact is, we don't really know what name to give it. I have proposed hellenized Christianity, but that is a description rather than a name.
The historical abominable church of the devil is that apostate church that replaced true Christianity in the first and second centuries, teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. It dethroned God in the church and replaced him with man by denying the principle of revelation and turning instead to human intellect. As the product of human agency, its creeds were an abomination to the Lord, for they were idolatry: men worshipping the creations, not of their own hands, but of their own minds.
Babylon in the first and second centuries may even have been a collection of different movements. Some Jewish Christians couldn't let go of the law of Moses and eventually gave up Christ instead. The Orthodox Christians adopted Greek philosophy. The Gnostics wallowed in the mysteries and in unspeakable practices on the one hand or in neurotic asceticism on the other. Second-century compilers like Tatian and Marcion rewrote the scriptures, the latter boldly chopping out anything, he didn't like. And all of them together forced the virtuous woman, the true church of Jesus Christ, into the wilderness.
But, Mormon leaders up until about 30 years ago were much more specific about who they believed Nephi was referring to. Now, Mormon posters are going to say that what I am about to share with you is not doctrinal and that it was only the opinion of the Church leaders at the time. Nevertheless, these were widely held beliefs and helps explain why Mormons historically have looked down on other Christian churches.
Quote:
"It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization" (McConkie [1958], 130.)

"Then speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, he [Nephi] designated the Catholic Church as ‘the mother of harlots’... (Ibid., 314-315.)

[Under the heading, “Church of the Devil”] "The Roman Catholic Church specifically – singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)" (Ibid., 129.)

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "***** of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Pratt, Orson, The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85
I could provide more quotes by more Mormon leaders, but they basically say the same thing. (Continued in the next post).
 
Old 02-07-2010, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 1,254,542 times
Reputation: 989
In his April 2006 Priesthood session talk, then Pres. Hinckley encouraged the membership to be kinder to those of other religions and races, which was a step in the right direction.



But, the reason why the prejudice exists in the first place and why it is difficult to get the people to follow a new injunction is because for generations Mormons were taught prejudice in their most sacred ordinance, the endowment in the temple?


I praise the LDS church for changing the endowment in 1990 to take out the character that represented a sectarian priest who was employed by Satan to teach the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve and the language that linked popes with false priests. Prejudice is taught. It was blatantly taught in the temple and from the pulpit and in the original "Mormon Doctrine", but that is changing and that is good. But, the church has a serious responsibility to undo the harm they caused by teaching prejudice for all those years, and it is going to take a lot more than the occasional General Conference talk to do it.


The pre-1990 version of the temple endowment, let me link to it (Comparison between the LDS temple endowment versions - part 2 For the relevant part start "THE LONE AND DREARY WORLD: THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM"). All of pre-1990 version can be found here, changes have been crossed out (Comparison between the LDS temple endowment versions).
 
Old 02-07-2010, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 1,872,292 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Rather than wade through all the posts to find answers, I am just going to ask new for me questions. I am reading the Book of Mormon and I find odd things. Now, please don't respond that these things are just part of the unknowable miracles, as that ain't no answer.

Laman had a sword of steel during the age of bronze, how?
Thank-you for your serious questions, I'll respond as best I can.

The steel sword that Laman had was brought from Jerusalem where it is known that forged steel was in use prior to 600 BC when Lehi and his family left Jerusalem and subsequently journeyed to the Americas.


"The November/December 2005 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review contains a summary of the final reports of excavation work at biblical Ekron (see Seymour Gitin, "Excavating Ekron: Major Philistine City Survived by Absorbing Other Cultures," 40—56).

Ekron, located only some 22 miles south of Jerusalem, was last destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 604 BC. Thus it predates the Book of Mormon record. Of special interest is an ivory-handled "dagger" or short sword. By the size of the adult hand holding it (see the accompanying photo), the blade is 12 to 16 inches in length. This metal must technically be described as steel rather than iron. Smelting anciently relied upon charcoal, which infused substantial amounts of carbon into the iron as the ore was smelted and the bloom was worked, producing a carbon steel. (Compare 1 Nephi 4:9, although "most precious" here might well indicate meteoric iron/nickel. Forged steel was more common in the ancient Near East in general and in Israel by Lehi's time than many have imagined.)"

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=14&num=2&id=379

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/search/?fulltext=steel+sword&search=Go



There is much more information available about your important question from reliable sources that are not just trying to cast doubt on the Book of Mormon and deceive people about the Latter-day Saints:


"Current information clearly indicates that by 1000 B.C. the most advanced metallurgy was being practiced in the Cauca Valley of Columbia. Metallurgy is known in Peru from 1900 B.C., and in Ecuador via trade by 1000 B.C. Since Mesoamerica is known to have had trade relations with parts of the continent that produced metals, and because metal artifacts dating prior to A.D. 900 have been found in Mesoamerica, it seems reasonable to assume that at least some Mesoamericans knew something about metallurgy."

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Metals

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Steel_in_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai267.html



I hope you enjoy reading the Book of Mormon and that you too will take the time to apply the spiritual test of its authenticity that the last of the Nephite prophets suggested towards the end of the book.

Last edited by justamere10; 02-07-2010 at 05:50 PM..
 
Old 02-07-2010, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 1,872,292 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
Just so you know where I am coming from, I am a former Mormon...
You certainly have every right to discuss Mormonism in this thread from your point of view, just as other board members have.

I'm pleased that you identified yourself as an apostate from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And I hope for the benefit of those who are new to this thread and serious about learning the truth about Mormons that you won't mind if I also identify you as a self-professed atheist with no belief in God or Jesus Christ and no belief that even the Bible, let alone the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

My guess is that you will agree that disclosing that information about you could be helpful for new members as they weigh for themselves the validity of any information you provide about Latter-day Saints, and possibly your motivation for responding to questions asked in this thread.

Besides, your active presence here will keep the real Mormons, like myself, on their toes.
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