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Old 02-08-2010, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,930 posts, read 29,774,299 times
Reputation: 13075

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
I am a concrete sort of fellow, I can understand "miracles" as allegorical stories designed to get a point across, but I expect geography and other concrete statements to be accurate. The bible works as history because the concrete statements of place and time can be found on the ground.
That may be true, but you've got to remember that most of the places mentioned in the Bible have existed for thousands of years and go by the same names today as they did back in Old Testament times? If Bethlehem, for instance, had become something of a ghost town over the centuries, how would archeologists have gone about proving its existence. It's a lot easier to find something if you know exactly what you're looking for and exactly where to look.

I wonder if you told the Bible to as rigid a standard as you do the Book of Mormon. I don't know how old you are, but I'm assuming you have been around for long enough to have heard the story of Daniel in the lions' den prior to 1983. Did you believe it, or did you dismiss it as false? Did you even know that the very first two lion skeletons ever unearthed in that part of the world were found as recently as 1983. Prior to the 1960's, not even any artistic depictions of lions had been found. I never cease to be amazed at the fact that most believing Christians actually accepted the fact that there really were lions in the middle east in biblical times when archeologist had never found one iota of evidence for their existence!

Quote:
As I continue to read, I am likely to have more questions.
Right now, three days from Jerusalem to the Red Sea, and a river flowing into the Red Sea in the Israel, Egypt Jordan Saudi area does not work for me.
May I ask you why you are reading the Book of Mormon in the first place?

 
Old 02-08-2010, 07:23 PM
 
Location: pensacola,florida
3,202 posts, read 4,418,667 times
Reputation: 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post

You have no idea where your mormon tithes go to, because they never tell you where they go to by giving you a complete accounting of what they take in and what they do with it; but in the UK, where they do have to report what they take in and what they spend, at least by that law they are forced to show themselves to be hypocrites on what they say they will do with monies collected and what they are completely lacking in doing with said collections.
If I dont care 'where my mormon tithes go' why do you?
 
Old 02-08-2010, 07:35 PM
 
Location: pensacola,florida
3,202 posts, read 4,418,667 times
Reputation: 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
You are mislead.

Enoch was a prophet who was shown everything and wrote of it, and it was not hidden, and it all refutes Mormon doctrine completely -as it does all foundations of all false religions; esp those that change the Gospel of Christ into another gospel with another Jesus, and which rely on another spirit, to prove to them that their contradictions to the Holy Scriptures of the Holy Bible are 'really what "God" meant to say".

Enoch was shown the "Scripture of Truth" written in heaven on tablets, which the angel showed Daniel, as reported in Daniel 10:21, when he showed Daniel what was written in that Scripture of Truth in heaven, about the things to come concerning Daniel's own people.

Daniel 10:21
Enoch was also given dream visions that told the history of this world, until the end of the millennial reign, and he saw the regeneration of the heavens and the earth. His writings were not hidden, except to those who chose blindness. They are in the list/canon of the Ethiopian Coptic collection of books/Bible, and have always been, since they, as converts to Moses and as natural born of Israel, Ethiopians, converted to Jesus Christ early in the Church age.

And Jesus read Enoch and called it Scripture in one place, and the Wisdom of God, in another
Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:
Of course it is interesting to note that the 'book of enoch' is not recognized as 'scripture' by about anyone other than you and the ethiopian coptic church.Most churches dont believe it was written by enoch and give it the same level of weight as they do the 'book of mormon'.......none.You are welcome to follow whatever books you wish,just as I am....I'm sure statistically the book of mormon has more adherents than 'the book of enoch and the book of jasher' do put together.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,369,311 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
I am a concrete sort of fellow, I can understand "miracles" as allegorical stories designed to get a point across, but I expect geography and other concrete statements to be accurate. The bible works as history because the concrete statements of place and time can be found on the ground.

As I continue to read, I am likely to have more questions.
Right now, three days from Jerusalem to the Red Sea, and a river flowing into the Red Sea in the Israel, Egypt Jordan Saudi area does not work for me.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are referring to the following two verses from the Book of Mormon.

"And he came down by the borders near the shore of the Red Sea; and he traveled in the wilderness in the borders which are nearer the Red Sea; and he did travel in the wilderness with his family, which consisted of my mother, Sariah, and my elder brothers, who were Laman, Lemuel, and Sam. And it came to pass that when he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a river of water." 1 Nephi 2: 5-6

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/2/5-6#5


Nephi is not saying that about 2,600 years ago his family traveled from Jerusalem all the way to the Red Sea in three days. But it certainly indicates that they headed in that direction and came close to whatever those "borders" were at that time. They quite possibly followed a trade route to stay near watering holes.


Regarding the river of Laman, if you were unable to get answers from the people at Welcome to the Nephi Project, there is quite a bit of information, maps, and even videos that you might find interesting at the following link:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Old_World


Quite frankly though I think you would find it much more beneficial to at least read the book all the way through once with an open mind rather than read just the first 4 or 5 pages and already get yourself mired in ancient geography. I doubt that you would ever get anything much of spiritual value out of the bible if you took that approach to each of its books.


-------
In 1986, Eugene England summarized 23 details of Arabian geography predicted by the Book of Mormon, and concluded that Joseph Smith would have not had access to the necessary information to forge so many inter-related facts. England's list read:
Figure 2: BYU Geography Department map of the Lehi party's journey from Jerusalem to Old World Bountiful.

  1. The route south to Aqaba is an anciently primary way out of Jerusalem.
  2. The ancient route, the Frankincense Trail, leaves the beach coast at Aqaba, so it is "near" the Red Sea; then it returns to it, so it is "nearer."
  3. The location of a major oasis about three days' journey along the trail from Aqaba.
  4. The location there of an impressive valley that could be used for poetic metaphor and
  5. of a continually flowing river that
  6. flows into an arm of the Red Sea called anciently a "fountain" and
  7. is capable of supporting extended settlement and growth of crops.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...aphy/Old_World
 
Old 02-08-2010, 08:42 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,082 posts, read 20,545,443 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
...I'm assuming you have been around for long enough to have heard the story of Daniel in the lions' den prior to 1983. Did you believe it, or did you dismiss it as false? Did you even know that the very first two lion skeletons ever unearthed in that part of the world were found as recently as 1983. Prior to the 1960's, not even any artistic depictions of lions had been found. ..
Henry Layard unearthed bas reliefs of a lion hunt in the middle east 150 years ago. I cannot recall any objections to Daniel on the grounds that there were no lions in the ancient middle east.

Fact is that the Daniel story is unbelievable for other reasons and that it had lions in it does nothing to make it believable. Trotting out the lions (skeptics confounded, shock, horror) is irrelevant and actually a bit of a strawman.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,369,311 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Trotting out the lions (skeptics confounded, shock, horror) is irrelevant and actually a bit of a strawman.
You've got the lion and the strawman but are you inferring that the steel was actually tin?
 
Old 02-08-2010, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,930 posts, read 29,774,299 times
Reputation: 13075
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Henry Layard unearthed bas reliefs of a lion hunt in the middle east 150 years ago.
I was unaware of the reliefs. Still, no bones.

Quote:
Fact is that the Daniel story is unbelievable for other reasons and that it had lions in it does nothing to make it believable.
Your comment is the one that's irrelevant. The fact that the story of Daniel is unbelievable to you doesn't matter to me, and my comment was addressed to someone who probably does believe it. Mainstream Christians accept plenty of things in the Bible without evidence. Why is it a straw man fallacy for me to point out the inconsistencies in their thinking?
 
Old 02-09-2010, 08:34 AM
 
212 posts, read 416,329 times
Reputation: 279
All religious doctrine is weird in my opinion. I'ts beyond me how someone of one faith can question the faith of somone else. I'ts all FAITH, something you believe is true without any concrete evidence for or against what you believe. Any debate of beliefs is simply empty exercise.

Religions are all cults, they all have aspects that defiy credibility and are sometimes just silly. I just shake my head and am entertained by the mental gymnastics that go into justification for all this stuff,
 
Old 02-09-2010, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,369,311 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by mortisha View Post
All religious doctrine is weird in my opinion. I'ts beyond me how someone of one faith can question the faith of somone else. I'ts all FAITH, something you believe is true without any concrete evidence for or against what you believe. Any debate of beliefs is simply empty exercise.

Religions are all cults, they all have aspects that defiy credibility and are sometimes just silly. I just shake my head and am entertained by the mental gymnastics that go into justification for all this stuff,
Thank-you for expressing your opinion in this thread.

Apparently you are among the tiny minority of people who reject faith as a powerful principle that really does make things happen in this world, and if you have enough faith, in the world to come as well. Perhaps you have never even read any of the many "power of positive thinking" books such as "Think and Grow Rich" which are based on the principle of faith, maybe not even James Allen's classic "As a Man Thinketh"?

As I see it, nothing much would happen in this world without faith being excercised to some degree. In my opinion those who do not at least experiment with the principle of faith and give it an honest try are missing out on much of their potential for a completely fulfilled life.

Below are a few comments about religious faith as I see it, including some wise advice from a prophet of God on how to develop faith and let God into your awareness.



God is not found through excercising the intellect. There are other tools, such as fasting, meditation, scripture study, singing hymns, listening to uplifting music, selfless service, excercising even only a tiny bit of faith if that's all you are capable of, and humble and sincere prayer.

"And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, (a very tiny seed) ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you." Luke 17: 5-6

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/17/5-6#5


There is a way to develop faith to the point where you need not have faith in that thing anymore, you have knowledge! But admittedly it takes some effort. Read along as I extract a few words written anciently by a prophet of God.


"Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge. But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness. Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good. And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand." Alma 32: 26-34

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/32/26-34#26
 
Old 02-09-2010, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,742,546 times
Reputation: 14116
Trying to prove or disprove a religion with physical evidence is an excercise in futility.

For example take the use of steel in the Book of Mormon. There have been no steel implements found in archaeological digs, of couse but look at this: Pumapunku - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I've been to this site in Bolivia and seen the amazing stoncutting work firsthand, and it seems impossible to me that the Tiwanaku people could have made those cuts on such hard stone with only stone tools, unless they had space alien friends . The must of had metal tools, maybe even steel to accomplish such exact stonework.

But even if they had steel, so what? Just because there was an incredibly advanced culture along the shores of lake Titicaca and a incredibly advanced civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not prove the book is true. Nor does any lack of evidence disprove it's validity.

So really, what's the point? As far as the LDS church goes... they seem to go to great lengths to try to prove their religion with physical evidence. Most debates I have with young earther's never give me a better argument than " Because the bible says so and it's the word of god" Why the difference with Mormons?
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