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Well you are at odds with the rest of the world on that one.
Furthermore, the marriages were consensual (after all, this was still America, land of the free).
No they wre not. there is the matter of the young man castrated and his fiance taken as a plural wife of a Mormon leader -and that's just one well known story.
No they wre not. there is the matter of the young man castrated and his fiance taken as a plural wife of a Mormon leader -and that's just one well known story.
No it's not Also, your statements / responses are always incredibly vague (not that you have any credibility anyway, as seem from your past responses and how many times you've been proven wrong). But still, some advice.
No it's not Also, your statements / responses are always incredibly vague (not that you have any credibility anyway, as seem from your past responses and how many times you've been proven wrong). But still, some advice.
I can document everything I say, and I do not lie, like Joe Smith did.
As an illustration... Warren Snow was Bishop of the Church at Manti, San Pete County, Utah. He had several wives, but there was a fair, buxom young woman in the town that Snow wanted for a wife.... She thanked him for the honor offered, but told him she was then engaged to a young man, a member of the Church, and consequently could not marry the old priest.... He told her it was the will of God that she should marry him, and she must do so; that the young man could be got rid of, sent on a mission or dealt with in some way... that, in fact, a promise made to the young man was not binding, when she was informed that it was contrary to the wishes of the authorities.
"The girl continued obstinate.... the authorities called on the young man and directed him to give up the young woman. This he steadfastly refused to do.... He remained true to his intended, and said he would die before he would surrender his intended wife to the embraces of another.... The young man was ordered to go on a mission to some distant locality... But the mission was refused...
"It was then determined that the rebellious young man must be forced by harsh treatment to respect the advice and orders of the Priesthood. His fate was left to Bishop Snow for his decision. He decided that the young man should be castrated; Snow saying, 'When that is done, he will not be liable to want the girl badly, and she will listen to reason when she knows that her lover is no longer a man.'
"It was then decided to call a meeting of the people who lived true to counsel, which was held in the school-house in Manti... The young man was there, and was again requested, ordered and threatened, to get him to surrender the young woman to Snow, but true to his plighted troth, he refused to consent to give up the girl. The lights were then put out. An attack was made on the young man. He was severely beaten, and then tied with his back down on a bench, when Bishop Snow took a bowie-knife, and performed the operation in a most brutal manner, and then took the portion severed from his victim and hung it up in the school-house on a nail, so that it could be seen by all who visited the house afterwards. "The party then left the young man weltering in his blood, and in a lifeless condition. During the night he succeeded in releasing himself from hishis friends. The young manhis health, but has been an idiot or quite lunatic ever since.... confinement, and dragged himself to some hay-stacks, where he lay until the next day, when he was discovered by regained "After this outrage old Bishop Snow took occasion to getup a meeting... When all had assembled, the old man talked to the people about their duty to the Church, and their duty to obey counsel, and the dangers of refusal, and then publicly called attention to the mangled parts of the young man, that had been severed from his person, and stated that the deed had been done to teach the people that the counsel of the Priesthood must be obeyed. To make a long story short, I will say, the young woman was soon after forced into being sealed to Bishop Snow.
"Brigham Young... did nothing against Snow. He left him in charge as Bishop at Manti, and ordered the matter to be hushed up." ( Ibid., pages 284-286)
Mormons today would be appalled if such a dastardly deed was committed and would demand that the persons responsible be severely punished. Brigham Young, however, approved of many violent acts perpetrated by those he put in authority. Interestingly, D. Michael Quinn found documented evidence showing that President Young supported Bishop Warren S. Snow's cruel mistreatment of the young man:
"In the midsummer of 1857 Brigham Young also expressed approval for an LDS bishop who had castrated a man. In May 1857 Bishop Warren S. Snow's counselor wrote that twenty-four-year-old Thomas Lewis 'has now gone crazy' after being castrated by Bishop Snow for an undisclosed sex crime. When informed of Snow's action, Young said: 'I feel to sustain him...' In July Brigham Young wrote a reassuring letter to the bishop about this castration: 'Just let the matter drop, and say no more about it,' the LDS president advised, 'and it will soon die away among the people.' "(The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, Vol. 2, pages 250-251)
No they wre not. there is the matter of the young man castrated and his fiance taken as a plural wife of a Mormon leader -and that's just one well known story.
Surprisingly, considering your source, there is an element of truth in what you write this time even though you source Jerald and Sandra Tanner who are the most prolific creators of anti-Mormon media ever and are cited by probably every anti-Mormon website in the world. The Tanners made their living over about 40 years until his death by producing, marketing, and selling anti-Mormon media with little or no regard for the truth.
Non-Mormon scholars of LDS issues have noted that the Tanners display a consistent bias in their work:
"[The Tanners] always assume the worst possible motives in assessing the actions of Mormon leaders, even when those leaders faced extremely complex problems with no simple solutions.... Every bit of evidence, even if it could be most plausibly presented in a positive way, is represented as yet another nail in the coffin being prepared for the Mormon Church. There is no spectrum of colors, only blacks and whites, good guys and villains in the Tanners' published writings.... The Tanners have repeatedly assumed a holier-than-thou stance, refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standards of absolute rectitude which they demand of Mormonism to their own actions, writings, and beliefs." Lawrence Foster, "Career Apostates:Reflections on the Works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 17:2 (Summer 1984): 45–46
We need to keep in mind that anti-Mormons almost invariably refer back to wild frontier times, pick out a few human beings who happen to have been members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and applying presentism try to smear today's 13,500,000 Latter-day Saints all over the world with the consequences of whatever those few persons did a hundred or more years ago in frontier America that the critics think in view of today's culture was reprehensible.
Regarding Warren Snow who was then serving as bishop of a local congregation (similar to a local minister or pastor) and the castration of a criminal who was on the way to a penitentiary for sexual crimes:
Conclusion
1. The castrated males were guilty of sexual assault or incest, not merely competing for a woman's affections.
2. Despite these sexual crimes or perversions, Brigham and other Church leaders did not approve the action taken by the local members.
3. Critics try to use these as an example of a "tip of the iceberg," problem, implying that many such extra-legal castrations occurred in Utah, and that the Church or its doctrines or leaders are somehow to blame. Such a characterization is unfair.
Given that in the 19th century there was a common tendency among non-Mormons for "frontier justice" to be carried out extra-legally, especially in the case of sexual crimes, its occurrence in areas far from central Church control on one or two occasions is not particularly surprising.
Points
Critics (often relying on D. Michael's Quinn's treatment) have over-simplified and sensationalized this event. Critics claim that Bishop Warren S. Snow forcibly castrated twenty-four-year-old Thomas Lewis, whose “crime” was wanting to marry a young woman that was desired by an older man as a plural wife. Critics also claim that Brigham Young wrote in a letter his approval after the fact in 1857.
The full story gives a somewhat different picture of these events. Warren Snow's biographer explains the matter thusly:
These events occurred during the Mormon Reformation, when inflammatory rhetoric called for harsh punishment for sin and crime. For Brigham the time for the actual implementation of such punishment was not yet, and partly hyperbole designed to stir a sinful population to improvement. Some listeners like Snow got confused and took things literally.
The rumor that Lewis was being punished for competing against an older polygamist is likely false. Kathryn Daynes gives another example where Brigham Young advised a young woman to marry a single, young man against her parents wishes that she marry a older polygamist.
Even if there is an element of truth in point #2, Lewis was being transported to the penitentiary for a sexual crime. He was not an innocent who was attacked simply for desiring a marriage.
While being transported at night, Snow and his gang secretly intercepted Lewis and carried out the castration.
Joseph Young (Brigham's brother) of the Presidents of the Seventy later learned about the incident and was incensed and “entirely disapproved” of it.
When Brigham Young heard about Lewis' sex crime and the punishment, he reiterated his stance that the time for such measures was still in the future, and not to be implemented in the here-and-now.
Brigham did not think Warren Snow did what was right, but felt Warren was “trying to do right” and that he should be sustained in his calling as Bishop.
Warren wanted Brigham to write a letter to members in Sanpete county to explain Warren’s action. Brigham declined to do, indicating that that would make matters worse. “Just let the matter drop, and say no more about it and it will soon die away amongst the people,” Brigham counseled.
Snow's life and experience had given him a "violent and vengeful world view," which helps in understanding his decision to attack and maim Lewis.
Federal marshals and judges were aware of the Lewis incident, and sought Snow's capture. However, they were eventually instructed by political leaders in Washington to let the matter drop. It was a Gentile political decision not to prosecute Snow for his actions
I can document everything I say, and I do not lie....
I posted a few comments about your story above.
The mob that murdered Joseph Smith in 1844 was led by a Methodist minister. Do you think it fair that all Methodists living today should be castigated and their religion put down because of the actions of that minister?
And yet that's what you seem to be trying to do to the Latter-day Saints with your twisted story of what a man voluntarily serving without pay for a period of time as a "bishop" over a local congregation did a long time ago in times when crimes were often dealt with by rough "frontier justice."
Kolob is not a planet, it's a sun. Truth is the light of Christ and of the sun.
Ancient prophets such as Abraham knew a great deal about the lights in the heavens and their significance to man, it was revealed to them by God. "Kolob" is not a planet, it is a huge star that is located near the celestial place where God dwells.
3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. 4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. • • • 9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same border as that upon which thou standest. • • • 16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.
13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.
"Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made." D&C 88: 7
Some of our critics apparently seem to think that Mormons do not know the bible. But the Holy Bible is one of the books in our canon. The Bible is studied and referred to by Latter-day Saints probably as much as is the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
Trying to prove something against "Mormonism" with quotes from the Bible is like one Christian trying to prove something against the beliefs of any other Christian with a reference to the bible. Everyone knows there are many ways to interpret and understand verses of the bible, that's why there are something like 38,000 different Christian denominations and nobody in a position to speak exclusively for Christianity.
It is my opinion that knowledgeable Mormons tend to understand the Bible better than some others because they can place those books in a much greater context of additional books of revelation, most of them also from Hebrew prophets and writers, and living prophets and apostles, as it was anciently.
Here is a link to the LDS canon online, including the King James version of the Bible. You can even have the scriptures read to you there. (Select scripture then click "Listen" in top left corner.)
The political world is astir. Economies are faltering. Public trust is waning. Individuals feel vulnerable. And social cohesion wears thin. Meanwhile, stories of rage and agitation fill our airwaves, streets and town halls. Where are the voices of balance and moderation in these extreme times?
The fabric of civil society tears when stretched thin by its extremities. Civility, then, becomes the measure of our collective and individual character as citizens of a democracy.
Civility is not only a matter of discourse. It is primarily a mode of engagement. The technological interconnectedness of society has made isolation impossible. Of all the institutions in the modern world, religion has had perhaps the greatest difficulty adjusting to the reality of give and take with the public.
Some people mistakenly think responses such as silence, meekness, forgiveness, and bearing humble testimony are passive or weak. But, to ‘love [our] enemies, bless them that curse [us], do good to them that hate [us], and pray for them which despitefully use [us], and persecute [us]’ (Matthew 5:44) takes faith, strength, and, most of all, Christian courage.
The moral basis of civility is the Golden Rule, taught by a broad range of cultures and individuals, perhaps most popularly by Jesus Christ: “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise” (Luke 6:31). This ethic of reciprocity reminds us all of our responsibility toward one another and reinforces the communal nature of human life.
Latter-day Saint ethical life requires members to treat their neighbors with respect, regardless of the situation. Behavior in a religious setting should be consistent with behavior in a secular setting. The Church hopes that our democratic system will facilitate kinder and more reasoned exchanges among fellow Americans than we are now seeing. In his inaugural President Monson emphasized the importance of cooperation in civic endeavors:
“We have a responsibility to be active in the communities where we live, all Latter-day Saints, and to work cooperatively with other churches and organizations. My objective there is ... that we eliminate the weakness of one standing alone and substitute for it the strength of people working together.”
Can you stop with the bashing already...Don't you have a life?
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Also, your statements / responses are always incredibly vague (not that you have any credibility anyway, as seem from your past responses and how many times you've been proven wrong). But still, some advice.
Kolob is not a planet, it's a sun. Truth is the light of Christ and of the sun.
