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Old 02-09-2010, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 5,505,664 times
Reputation: 836

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Quote:
Did you even know that the very first two lion skeletons ever unearthed in that part of the world were found as recently as 1983. Prior to the 1960's, not even any artistic depictions of lions had been found. I never cease to be amazed at the fact that most believing Christians actually accepted the fact that there really were lions in the middle east in biblical times when archeologist had never found one iota of evidence for their existence!
That is not accurate, Assyrian and Babylonian lion depictions, are common.


Quote:
May I ask you why you are reading the Book of Mormon in the first place?
Curiosity.

Quote:
Quite frankly though I think you would find it much more beneficial to at least read the book all the way through once with an open mind rather than read just the first 4 or 5 pages and already get yourself mired in ancient geography. I doubt that you would ever get anything much of spiritual value out of the bible if you took that approach to each of its books.
That does not work for me. If I read a novel, and the author does not get his geography correct, it is hard to accept any other information as accurate. I expect basic facts to be accurate. As far as Daniel in the lion's den, Panthera Leo Persica existed in the Middle East at this time, Lions also existed in Europe at this time.

The Romans made the European Lion extinct, and likely Persica in the Middle East, as you know they used them in their circuses.

Last edited by Clarks; 02-09-2010 at 11:35 AM..

 
Old 02-09-2010, 11:40 AM
 
212 posts, read 416,373 times
Reputation: 279
I'ts no use quoting a scripture - any scripture - to me, it means no more than some guy, always a guy, in the past made some remark about their faith at that time. In have very strong faith - in myself. I have multiple sclerosis and believe me if I didn't have faith in myself I would never try to get out of bed every day.

Why do you think someone has to believe in some power outside themselves to guide their lives? I believe a person has inner strength and that if someone else does not have their own inner strength and they feel that they have to look outside themselves for that strength who am I to judge that? I don't, just don't expect me to buy into your doctrine. I never will and you will never buy into my doctrine.

As to faith making things happen in this world, are you kidding? To me that sounds like Peter Pan telling kids to clap their hands if they believe in fairies and the fairies will be saved from dying out. If I just sat around every day and had faith that my legs would work better today or that I wouldn't fall if I didn't use my cane I would be in very bad shape by now. No one can make my legs work better, only me. I have to use my legs to the best of my ability every day, I have to do my exercisies every day, I have to give myself an injection every day in the hope that it will slow my disease down, I have to use my cane every day so I don't fall and dislocate my elbow again.

I have the inner strength to do these things. I don't just hope things will get better.. what is that Bible verse? Something about God helps those who help themselves? Right, I believe that.
 
Old 02-09-2010, 12:20 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 5,441,889 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by imbobbbb View Post
Of course it is interesting to note that the 'book of enoch' is not recognized as 'scripture' by about anyone other than you and the ethiopian coptic church.Most churches dont believe it was written by enoch and give it the same level of weight as they do the 'book of mormon'.......none.You are welcome to follow whatever books you wish,just as I am....I'm sure statistically the book of mormon has more adherents than 'the book of enoch and the book of jasher' do put together.
Statistics do not prove beans, in this matter. The Hindu Scriptures and the Quran have more adherents than your book of Mormon and your accompanying books and all the "sermons and discoursess" of your founders, which were all written in falsehood, against Christ and His Church.
At least the Hindi and Islamics do not pretend to be "Christian" -followers of Christ the Messiah- which makes them more honorable and less accountable, in the day of judgment by Christ Jesus, than one which presents a "changeling Jesus", with another gospel and another spirit other than the One Holy Spirit, to its adherents.


Only the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century and the Hellenized Roman Church of the fourth century [following the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century], banned Enoch. The Christ rejecting Jews of the first century banned Enoch because it precisely shows that Jesus Christ is God, in the Person of the Word, come in flesh of human being creation, as the Messiah, and come so as to redeem the lost seed of Adam; whom He would cleanse by His atonement and adopt into His Living Spirit and join to His New Man name, for eternal salvation.

Jesus called Enoch's writings Scripture, when He rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing the writings/sacred scripture of Enoch, which tell that in heaven the angels do not marry and that the resurrected righteous would be companions/like/equal to the angels in heaven; and Jesus called Enoch's writings the Wisdom of God, when He quoted what Enoch wrote by revelation, in the dream visions, about the elect people killing the sent/apostles and persecuting them.


Tertullien said that "Enoch is Scripture". So did many other early NT Church writers. Barnabas, a disciple of Christ -one of the seventy, who was the brother to Mary, the mother of John Mark- called Enoch "Scripture" and quoted from it a total of four references were made to Enoch's writings, by Barnabas.
James and Jude, Jesus' womb brothers, quote from it; as does Peter, and Paul. And the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the final chapter of the revelations of Christ that began with Enoch seeing Him first, in heaven, "in secret, hidden in heaven", as "God in wisdom hidden to be revealed to the elect in His season", and to be revealed to the world at His coming at the end of the great tribulation, when He comes in judgment. Enoch saw Him with God, and as the Word/Oath of God, who made all things and upholds all things -just as John and other apostles also repeated of Him, from Enoch, as Enoch wrote of Him first, "before all things".

The Essenes -the community of Jews who opposed the Pharisees for thier backslidden condition after the return form Babylon, and who kept the law, called Enoch Scripture and studied it as such. They left many manuscripts of Enoch in the Qumran caves, because the community used it for study of the end times and of the revelation of the Holy One -The Anointed One of God, who was to come.

The Jews in Ethiopia had and used Enoch as Scripture, and when they converted to the Gospel of Christ, they never followed Rome's error in banning it; and from them copies were got in the late 1700's and translated to English in the early 1800's, preceeding the errors of Joseph Smith by decades, and rebuking them as lies -before he even made his claims of another and different Jesus than the Jesus Christ of the revelation of Enoch and the OT and NT.

AbraHAm did write his own life history, as all the patriarchs did, which Moses used for writing the Book of Jasher and which Moses further redacted for the Genesis accounts, and contrary to the fraud book which Joeseph Smith claimed was written by Abraham, the real writings of Abraham which exist in fragments in the Dead Sea Scrolls corroborates the OT record and also Jasher, and also corroborates the Book of Enoch as Sacred Scripture.
In the Genesis Apocryphon of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Abraham writes that He read from the Book of Enoch to teach the men of Pharaoh values, wisdom, and truth [when they asked him too, upon returning Sarah to him, because they had been warned not to touch Sarah and that Abraham was a prophet of the Most High God].

Going by the chronology of Abraham in Jasher, that reading to the Men of Pharaoh in Egypt from the book of Enoch was done by Abraham only forty years after the fall of the tower of Babel.Abraham got the Book from Noah and Shem, with whom he lived, while hiding from Nimrod for 39 years.
Quote:
Book of Jasher CHAPTER 9--When Ten Years Old, Abram goes to Noah and Shem, Remains with them for Thirty-nine Years, and is Taught in all the Ways of the Lord. The Wickedness of Nimrod and his People. They Propose to Build a Tower to Heaven and Dethrone God. The confusion of Tongues.
Everything in the history of Enoch's writing shows that only the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century banned Enoch, and the Hellenized Roman Christians of the fourth century followed them. No one else did follow Rome or the Christ rejecting Jews in banning Enoch.

From the Dead Sea Scrolls Genesis Apocryphon, translated;
Quote:
Translation of 1Q Genesis Apocryphon (1QapGen)...
And I, Abram, dreamed a dream during the night of my entering the land of Egypt....


[But after those five years, three men who were princes of Egypt [came … …] of Pharaoh Zoa[n] about my affairs and about my wife, and they presented [me numerous gifts and aske]d m[e to teach them] values, wisdom, and truth So I read in their presence the [book of] the words of [En]och

Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 02-09-2010 at 12:30 PM..
 
Old 02-09-2010, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,369,311 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by mortisha View Post
I'ts no use quoting a scripture - any scripture - to me, it means no more than some guy, always a guy, in the past made some remark about their faith at that time. In have very strong faith - in myself. I have multiple sclerosis and believe me if I didn't have faith in myself I would never try to get out of bed every day.

Why do you think someone has to believe in some power outside themselves to guide their lives? I believe a person has inner strength and that if someone else does not have their own inner strength and they feel that they have to look outside themselves for that strength who am I to judge that? I don't, just don't expect me to buy into your doctrine. I never will and you will never buy into my doctrine.

As to faith making things happen in this world, are you kidding? To me that sounds like Peter Pan telling kids to clap their hands if they believe in fairies and the fairies will be saved from dying out. If I just sat around every day and had faith that my legs would work better today or that I wouldn't fall if I didn't use my cane I would be in very bad shape by now. No one can make my legs work better, only me. I have to use my legs to the best of my ability every day, I have to do my exercisies every day, I have to give myself an injection every day in the hope that it will slow my disease down, I have to use my cane every day so I don't fall and dislocate my elbow again.

I have the inner strength to do these things. I don't just hope things will get better.. what is that Bible verse? Something about God helps those who help themselves? Right, I believe that.
Fair enough, that's how you see it, but I'm wondering why you are writing in a Religion forum, and in particular a thread where people come to discuss Mormonism?
 
Old 02-09-2010, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,369,311 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
That does not work for me. If I read a novel, and the author does not get his geography correct, it is hard to accept any other information as accurate. I expect basic facts to be accurate...
Novels of course are fiction and therefore not expected to be "accurate." And if something is known to not be accurate it is not likely to be considered a "fact."

I provided links for you to study up for yourself regarding your concerns, but it seems instead that you are approaching your read of the Book of Mormon with an overly critical attitude and assume 'inaccuracies' where it's quite probable had you studied up on the matter you would have found your concerns to be groundless. Perhaps you are stuck on an attitude that requires you to disagree with the Book of Mormon and if maintained for the books of the bible would deprive you from getting anything of spiritual value out of them too?

Can we help you understand better anything else about Mormonism?
 
Old 02-09-2010, 02:55 PM
 
212 posts, read 416,373 times
Reputation: 279
Because I can and because it is another view on Mormonism and all relgion. Why not consider a completley different take on a religion?
 
Old 02-09-2010, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 5,505,664 times
Reputation: 836
Quote:
Novels of course are fiction and therefore not expected to be "accurate." And if something is known to not be accurate it is not likely to be considered a "fact
."

Not true at all, good authors are sticklers for detail. If I read a novel by Ernest Hemmingway, or Ken Follett, or Louie L'Amour, or Tony Hillerman to name just four, if they state a hill is there, it is. If they state a river is there, it is, less a particular location needs to be tweaked for the story line.

If I read the bible and there is a river mentioned, or a town, or a hill that hill is there.


Quote:
I provided links for you to study up for yourself regarding your concerns, but it seems instead that you are approaching your read of the Book of Mormon with an overly critical attitude
I will get to those, but, first I ask the question. If I did not approach the Book of Mormon with a critical attitude, if I did not approach the Bible with a critical attitude, if I did not approach Mein Kampf with a critical attitude, if I did not approach Das Capital with a critical attitude, if I did not approach fiction writing with a critical attitude, then what is the use of having a brain. People who do not approach ideas and philosophy's with a critical attitude may fall for anything, witness the Hare Krishna' movement, or the Jim Jones people.

If I do not get a straightforward answer without dissembling, or attacking my motives and intentions, and I look at that with a critical attitude, what do you think I will think?





Quote:
and assume 'inaccuracies' where it's quite probable had you studied up on the matter you would have found your concerns to be groundless. Perhaps you are stuck on an attitude that requires you to disagree with the Book of Mormon and if maintained for the books of the bible would deprive you from getting anything of spiritual value out of them too?

I have questions of fact, to consciously convert that to "concerns" concerns me. You may notice that I have not disagreed with the Book of Mormon, and your defensiveness is yet another "concern".

If I have to suspend thinking and questioning to get "anything of spiritual value" I am not the one with the problem.



Quote:
Can we help you understand better anything else about Mormonism?
I have no questions about Mormonism at this time. I have, as I stated, questions about statements of fact in the Book of Mormonism that do not appear believable. If you can answer those without questioning my motives, or without telling me to suspend thinking, please do, otherwise, ignore me, and let someone else give it a whack.
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:32 PM
 
97 posts, read 120,215 times
Reputation: 23
Can you quote me some scripture from the Bible, old or new testament, where it tells of the coming of Joseph Smith? It speaks of a lot of false prohpets, but I would like to see where it speaks of Joseph Smith.
 
Old 02-09-2010, 04:06 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 5,441,889 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
."

Not true at all, good authors are sticklers for detail. If I read a novel by Ernest Hemmingway, or Ken Follett, or Louie L'Amour, or Tony Hillerman to name just four, if they state a hill is there, it is. If they state a river is there, it is, less a particular location needs to be tweaked for the story line.

If I read the bible and there is a river mentioned, or a town, or a hill that hill is there.


Absolutely true. To write "historical" novels of places which do not exist one has to invent worlds that do not exist, for those places, as C.S.Lewis did.
God's Word gives true names of true places, just as the book of Jasher does, and one can use Jasher to discover ancient cities -and the meanings of their names- just as one can use Genesis to discover the same.

Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 02-09-2010 at 04:16 PM..
 
Old 02-09-2010, 04:12 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 5,441,889 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by byebyeducky View Post
Can you quote me some scripture from the Bible, old or new testament, where it tells of the coming of Joseph Smith? It speaks of a lot of false prohpets, but I would like to see where it speaks of Joseph Smith.
He's only included in the list of false prophets, and his angelic vision is included in those accursed who bring another Gospel and another Jesus, by another spirit.

But as for Jesus Christ, He is God's last Word to mankind:
Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And His last book to mankind is the Revelation of Himself given to John to write:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand. Rev 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
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