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Your charge that Mormons "rewrite history" whatever that really means has been mindlessly flying around anti-Mormon circles for quite some time. But what specific history is being rewritten, how, by who, and when?
Here's a link to some pertinent historical material on a variety of subjects for those who are interested in learning the truth about Mormons.
But LDS Church leaders are sensitive to criticism and do what they can to adequately address it. For decades some critics of the church have pretended that they were allowed access to secret manuscripts or whatever in LDS vaults and are exposing the Mormons. Or pretended that Mormon archives are sealed or whatever. (Of course, the way it is with any library in the world that houses precious irreplaceable documents, some LDS archives are generally only available to bona fide scholars who will not damage, alter, or steal those documents.)
To end those attacks it was decided to find and publically publish every available scrap of paper about Joseph Smith and early LDS history. That ambitious project, titled "The Joseph Smith Papers" is now underway, will take many years to complete, but has already published the first two volumes.
Here are a few extracts from the Joseph Smith Papers website:
Why was the project undertaken?
Producing a definitive, scholarly edition of Joseph Smith’s papers will allow increased and better scholarship on Joseph Smith and early Mormonism.
Scattered documents will be gathered into one multivolume source, and manuscripts of varying legibility will be carefully transcribed and verified. In addition to making the content of these documents more accessible, transcription and publication will help preserve these delicate documents, which are subject to the ravages of age and handling and to possible damage from water, fire, and insects.
Where are these documents located?
Most of the documents are housed in the Church History Library of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Community of Christ (formerly The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) preserves others. Some individual collectors have allowed access to important papers. An extensive search has been made to locate and retrieve images of documents from every significant repository in the United States. Institutions such as the Huntington Library in San Marino, California; the Chicago Historical Society; the Library of Congress; and the university libraries at Princeton, Harvard, and Yale all have relevant documents. Newspaper accounts, court records, and other legal and financial records have come from government repositories in many locations.
How does the project ensure that scholarly standards are maintained?
A qualified, well-trained staff adheres to high standards in transcription, verification, and documentary editing. The project conducts various levels of internal and external review on each volume.
An external national advisory board reviews each volume and acts as consultants for the project. The four-member board, recognized scholars in American religious history and documentary editing, is made up of one Latter-day Saint scholar and three scholars of other faiths.
Rules of Transcription
Identifying handwriting, differentiating character strokes from slips of the pen, noticing insertions squeezed into the line of writing, and dealing with poor penmanship require judgment and great care. To ensure accuracy in representing the texts, transcripts were verified three times, each time by a different set of eyes. The first two verifications were done using high-resolution scanned images. The first was a visual collation of the journal images with the transcripts, while the second was an independent and double-blind image-to-transcript tandem proofreading. The third and final verification of the transcripts was a visual collation with the original document. At this stage, the verifier employed magnification and ultraviolet light as needed to read badly faded text, recover heavily stricken material, untangle characters written over each other, and recover words canceled by messy “wipe erasures” made when the ink was still wet or removed by knife scraping after the ink had dried.
The verified transcripts meet or exceed the transcription and verification requirements of the Modern Language Association’s Committee on Scholarly Editions and the National Archives and Records Administration’s National Historical Publications and Records Commission.
Last edited by justamere10; 10-06-2009 at 08:19 AM..
Your quote is of course from the usual biased unreliable source. This time from a "ministry" organized specifically to convert those evil Mormons over to someone else's notion of what certain verses of the bible mean. The front page has the usual 'kind' commentary such as a story titled "LDS missionaries stoop to thievery." And of course your website also conveniently has a large online store (surprise surprise) where you can order anti-Mormon materials online in just about any format you care to indulge in and are willing to pay for. It's just gotta be a lucrative industry, churning out, marketing, and selling scurrilous anti-Mormon media in the guise of doing 'Christian' service...
I guess I'll never cease to be amazed at how the paid pastors of some specific Christian denominations seem to think they can build themselves up not by telling others about the good news Jesus brings, but by deceiving their flock into believing that certain other flocks who follow Jesus Christ but do not believe exactly as those pastors teach are evil. After all, if members of their flock started to leave for other denominations those professional paid pastors, sincere and Christlike as they may present themselves and maybe think they are, could feel that their status and living was threatened.
Oh well, gotta love them too....
I never said I was a fan of Christian preachers who are out to make a buck either.
I really don't think Mormons are out to make money, just trying to grow their faith as much as possible. Trying to gain political offices to futher their religion and montra, and things like that.
I just think its wrong to force people to pay tithes to be a part of your church.
As far as the "the usual sources" thing. I'm sorry, I'm not going to find someone who isn't critical of Mormans that you are going to think is "credible". The evidence I posted speaks for itself.
And its well documented that Mormons are trying to distance themselves from their polygamist past. You can't escape the fact that your founder was a polygamist, so they just keep forgetting to mention that. So after a while, people won't even remember it anymore.
I'm just one of those thorns that likes to keep reminding religions of their history.
And its well documented that Mormons are trying to distance themselves from their polygamist past. You can't escape the fact that your founder was a polygamist, so they just keep forgetting to mention that. So after a while, people won't even remember it anymore.
I'm just one of those thorns that likes to keep reminding religions of their history.
Amen to that. The LDS faith spends a lot of time lauding it's past. While early church members did suffer greatly, they (and Joseph Smith himself) were far from perfect. It would be more honest to admit the mistakes of the past rather than try to simply glorify the past.
I never said I was a fan of Christian preachers who are out to make a buck either.
I really don't think Mormons are out to make money, just trying to grow their faith as much as possible. Trying to gain political offices to futher their religion and montra, and things like that.
I just think its wrong to force people to pay tithes to be a part of your church.
As far as the "the usual sources" thing. I'm sorry, I'm not going to find someone who isn't critical of Mormans that you are going to think is "credible". The evidence I posted speaks for itself.
And its well documented that Mormons are trying to distance themselves from their polygamist past. You can't escape the fact that your founder was a polygamist, so they just keep forgetting to mention that. So after a while, people won't even remember it anymore.
I'm just one of those thorns that likes to keep reminding religions of their history.
My guess is that people of all faiths have primary motives for running for public office that are much more important to them than promoting the religious denomination they happen to belong to. But ok, that's how you see it.
You continue to have a strange notion that Mormons force people to do anything. All churches have qualifications of some kind for membership, as does probably every other group or entity. People who don't want to meet those qualifications can freely choose not to join.
Actually I don't recall ever hearing any Mormon express that they were trying to distance themselves from polygamy. That break happened about 120 years ago, long before any of us were even born. But I guess it seems fascinating for some people to contemplate in today's society where it is so common for people to totally ignore God's chastity commandments and routinely have sexual relations outside of marriage. The relatively few saints who did live the law of plural marriage in the 1800's actually believed they were being obedient to the Lord's commandments to them during their time on earth, not breaking them.
Personally I feel honored and blessed to be a member of the Lord's restored church and to know that the restoration took place because of the obedience of Joseph Smith, God's chosen prophet/leader of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. You are free to judge him and his works for yourself, as have I.
The life and mission of Joseph Smith, first Prophet of the LDS Church:
Amen to that. The LDS faith spends a lot of time lauding it's past. While early church members did suffer greatly, they (and Joseph Smith himself) were far from perfect. It would be more honest to admit the mistakes of the past rather than try to simply glorify the past.
Latter-day Saints from the beginning, including Joseph Smith, were all human beings and fallible. But things our misinformed critics take for "mistakes" may not have been mistakes at all.
The church has formally apologized for the Mountain Meadows incident that occured during the "Utah War" when the US army invaded Utah to supposedly put down a nonexistent "rebellion."
But we'll always 'glorify' the events of the founding of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because they were so remarkable, accompanied as they were by the appearance of even God the Father, many times of Jesus Christ, and others such as Moses, Elijah, Elias, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John and others to pass along priesthood and keys of authority they held during their mortal lives. (Those who believe in the bible, as I mentioned above, should not have a problem with angels appearing to prophets, it happened a lot in ancient times, especially when new dispensations were ushered in.)
Last edited by justamere10; 10-06-2009 at 12:15 PM..
Amen to that. The LDS faith spends a lot of time lauding it's past. While early church members did suffer greatly, they (and Joseph Smith himself) were far from perfect. It would be more honest to admit the mistakes of the past rather than try to simply glorify the past.
Well thats the problem isn't it?
I mean, if Christians were to say, "Well Christ wasn't perfect" then that would be the end of their religion.
Mormons believe that their "prophet" Joseph Smith was in touch with God and doing Gods work. Mr. Smith apparently saw it as Gods work to marry as many as 48 wives!!! Having children with most of them at the least.
Jews acknowledge that Moses, Abraham, Joseph, David, Soloman, and many of their other patriarchs were far from perfect. But they don't run away from that, and they don't try and forget about it.
It is my opinion that you would have more credibility if you got your 'facts' right. Those who have been following this thread will be aware that Mindy was not excommunicated.
You would have more credibility if you didn't put words in my mouth. I never said that anyone was "excommunicated"; I said she was subject to "disciplinary courts", which was simply repeating what you said in a previous post.
You are so eager to discredit me that you are lying about what I said. You have little to no credibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10
There are a lot of accusations against Joseph Smith that are groundless and completely refuted, especially those concerning eternal marriage. Critics of the church often make use of presentism, discussing events in ancient or in this case frontier times and making conclusions and judgments as if culture and environment was the same then as it is today. For example, in the early 1800's life was so short compared to today that marriage at age 14 was common. A boy was considered to be a man at that age. Only in modern times has there been the luxury in some countries of teenage years such as they are known in USA society today.
There is absolutely no data to support your claims here.
In the early 1800's, it was rare for 14-year-old girls to marry, not common. Even if it happened more than it does today, it was marginally more.
Also, when 14-15 year old girls married back then, it was almost always to a man no more than a few years older than them. A 14-year-old girl marrying a 16-year-old boy was quite a difference from a 14-year old girl marrying a 35-year-old man as Joseph Smith was when he did that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10
But if you'd like to ask one or more specific questions instead of just making dubious statements I'd be pleased to respond to them.
No, I just want to contribute to the purpose of the thread and make Mormonism "simple" for people to understand. For example, it's pretty simple to understand that Joseph Smith married over 30 women, most of whom were either very young teenage girls or women who were already married to other men (which is adultery, even if plural marriage were ever acceptable).
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10
It appears that you are painting with such a broad brush in the message I am responding to that you'd probably also condemn most of the ancient prophets and patriarchs many of whom were known to have lived the law of plural marrage.
I don't condemn plural marriage, God has. God never made it acceptable for any prophet or patriarch to engage in plural marriage. Furthermore, NONE of them ever committed adultery with the wife of another living man, except for King David, who was punished very severely for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10
The LDS Church abandoned the practice of a man having more than one wife at the same time about 1890 when the U.S. government threatened to send the army to invade Utah Territory and confiscate church property if they did not do so.
That's not true. Parts of the LDS Church still believe in and practice polygamy, such as the Fundamentalist LDS. Only the Salt Lake branch conveniently gave up that practice (which previous prophets declared was essentially mandatory) only when it became an issue of dealing with the government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10
"And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel. Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?" Alma 39: 3-5
Mr. Smith apparently saw it as Gods work to marry as many as 48 wives!!! Having children with most of them at the least.
Do you just say anything that pops into your head, Memphis, and then hope that nobody will call you on it? Would you care to try to substantiate your comment about Joseph Smith's children with some actual evidence? Don't waste too much time, though. There has not been one single solitary documented case of a child having been fathered by Joseph Smith -- except with his first wife, Emma. Emma had quite a few children with Joseph, so he was evidently capable of fathering children. He did not father a single child by any other wife. Seriously, you need to at least take a stab at getting your facts straight before posting information you can't possibly find evidence to support.
I mean, if Christians were to say, "Well Christ wasn't perfect" then that would be the end of their religion.
Mormons believe that their "prophet" Joseph Smith was in touch with God and doing Gods work. Mr. Smith apparently saw it as Gods work to marry as many as 48 wives!!! Having children with most of them at the least.
Jews acknowledge that Moses, Abraham, Joseph, David, Soloman, and many of their other patriarchs were far from perfect. But they don't run away from that, and they don't try and forget about it.
I think your 'facts' are incorrect about the number of wives Joseph Smith had but whatever, yes, he was commanded of the Lord to have more than one wife.
You also probably fail to understand that most of those "wives" were women who chose of their own accord to marry him, not to have sexual relations in this life, but to be his companion in the eternities. My understanding is that even after his martyrdom, until church leaders put a stop to it, a lot of women asked to be sealed to Joseph Smith for all eternity. In any event, no woman was forced to marry Joseph Smith, they did so of their own free will and choice.
Anyway, why should it trouble you? Are you judging a man of God comparable to the Old Testament prophets from the distance of 180 years and finding him in your own mind guilty of motives or behavior that you would consider evil, or that you yourself are so pure that you would not have 'succumbed' to should they have been against God's will at the time? Could there perhaps be a beam in your own eye do you think?
Or are you just trying to find some dirt of some kind regardless of whether or not it is factual to sully members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
By the way, that matter has been studied a great deal and continues to be studied by scholars, but to my knowledge there is still no documented evidence that Joseph Smith fathered any child other than with his first wife Emma.
I, and my guess is that most if not all other Mormons acknowledge that Joseph Smith was not perfect.
It's not adultery if you're married. A key skill of a religious leader is the ability to justify anything.
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