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I'm puzzled by a couple of statements in this thread. The first one being that Judaism dates from 2000BC. If Jews believe (as I think they do) that all mankind began with Adam and Eve then surely Judaism dates back to the very creation?
The other thing that puzzles me is where does this idea of Mithras being born of a virgin come from? I thought Mithras emerged as a fully formed adult out of a rock. The shepherds were supposed to have helped him come out of the rock. I suppose the hole left in the rock where he had been could at a pinch be described as a cave but how this is supposed to be anything like Jesus being born as a baby to a real human mother in a stable in Bethlehem is totally beyond me.
As a Christian I deal with the 'similarities' by seeing that they are so dissimilar as to be totally irrelevant.
I was thinking about this thread in the shower this morning (Yes, I do think a lot of deep thoughts when shampooing my hair) and I was mulling over the fact that we LDS are probably not shaken by all these similarities between Paganism and Christianity because we believe Adam and Eve were taught all about the plan of salvation and the atonement after they had been cast out of the Garden of Eden. So they would have passed all of this down to their children and they would have passed it on and so on, but as time goes on and people move apart and stories are retold then things can go a little haywire like in Chinese Whispers. So you get all these other religions popping up which have smatterings of the stories and some are closer to the original than others.
Then I also got to thinking how The Da Vinci Code was supposed to shatter the faith of Christians with this notion that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and I thought that that doesn't shake the foundations of a Mormon either because we believe that marriage is part of the overall plan of getting to the Celestial Kingdom and that families are eternal so why would Jesus deny himself something which is part of the Celestial Kingdom? It doesn't make sense. I do believe that he died and rose again. Any idea that he didn't die and just went off and got married doesn't gel. But Mary was the first one at the tomb and for a widow that makes a lot of sense. The marriage at Cana - why would a wedding guest be consulted about the wine? No-one knew Jesus could perform miracles until then but it makes sense that someone would have a quiet word with the bridegroom about such an embarrassing problem.
Sorry, bit of a thread wander but that's what happens when I start thinking when I'm washing my hair.
I'm puzzled by a couple of statements in this thread. The first one being that Judaism dates from 2000BC. If Jews believe (as I think they do) that all mankind began with Adam and Eve then surely Judaism dates back to the very creation?
The other thing that puzzles me is where does this idea of Mithras being born of a virgin come from? I thought Mithras emerged as a fully formed adult out of a rock. The shepherds were supposed to have helped him come out of the rock. I suppose the hole left in the rock where he had been could at a pinch be described as a cave but how this is supposed to be anything like Jesus being born as a baby to a real human mother in a stable in Bethlehem is totally beyond me.
As a Christian I deal with the 'similarities' by seeing that they are so dissimilar as to be totally irrelevant.
I'm kinda surprised, shibainu, that you weren't refuting this Mithraism/Christianity stretch here.
What was said earlier in this thread and multiple times across this forum is that Christianity isn't an off-shoot of Mithraism, rather Mithraism is a rogue messianic story based on the teachings of the Old Testament.
In other words, you had the beginning and G-d making Himself known to His people from the dawn of creation. Mithraism is obviously based on someone reading the Old Testament and 'creating' the pagan religion.
I know you reject Jesus as your Messiah, but surely you are not implying that Christianity is from Mithraism, I think what you mean to imply is that both are products of interpretations of your (and mine, btw) Prophets. So that the only difference is that I do embrace Jesus as my Messiah and you do not.
I guess what I am really saying is that when the messiah you are looking for arrives, the similarities between him and Christianity and Mithraism will exist for him too. In that scenario, surely your messiah won't have stolen from Christians and Mithraists but vice-versa rather, regardless of which one was in existence before.
Old scholarship (Franz Cumont) linked the Iranian Mithra much more closely to the Roman cult of Mithras than modern scholars, who recognize that the name was grabbed from Zoroastrianism but the vast majority of belief replaced. To say that the Cult of Mithras was the predominant religion in the First Century Roman Empire is to neglect the influence other religions, such as the Imperial Religion and the Cult of Isis (and various local religions). Yes, Mithras was popular with the army, and was therefore widespread, but it certainly wasn't more widespread than the Imperial cult.
Anybody who laughs at literalist Christians for using spurious science to support 6 days of creation shouldn't be using spurious scholarship themselves in order to undermine Christianity. If you are correct, the truth will bear that out.
I'm kinda surprised, shibainu, that you weren't refuting this Mithraism/Christianity stretch here.
What was said earlier in this thread and multiple times across this forum is that Christianity isn't an off-shoot of Mithraism, rather Mithraism is a rogue messianic story based on the teachings of the Old Testament.
In other words, you had the beginning and G-d making Himself known to His people from the dawn of creation. Mithraism is obviously based on someone reading the Old Testament and 'creating' the pagan religion.
I know you reject Jesus as your Messiah, but surely you are not implying that Christianity is from Mithraism, I think what you mean to imply is that both are products of interpretations of your (and mine, btw) Prophets. So that the only difference is that I do embrace Jesus as my Messiah and you do not.
I guess what I am really saying is that when the messiah you are looking for arrives, the similarities between him and Christianity and Mithraism will exist for him too. In that scenario, surely your messiah won't have stolen from Christians and Mithraists but vice-versa rather, regardless of which one was in existence before.
Thoughts?
The links I provided had some historical background on the religion. Some had opinions that were expressed by that author.
The messiah for the Jews will not be the same as Jesus or Mithras. I am not saying that Mithras is Jesus. I am say some of the rituals and practices have been crossed over between the two religions. The problem with "Christianity" as a religion is that it may have been diluted from what the original Christians were practicing.
Baal worship and Mithraism (Zoroastrianism) were described in the Old Testament and god commanded Jews not to follow those practices. The Messiah for the Jews will be like Moses or David. I have posted in many different sections of this forum about this matter. But it is not the main point. My problem is with believing the New Testament as from god. The evidence in the Old Testament alone can disprove that it is not from god. Why do I side a little more with Judaism is because they are the chosen people that the torah was given too. So they would understand it better than anyone else. It would be like if you wanted to learn to speak German but you do not go to the original people that spoke the language. But instead you go to an online class or use computer software program or taught by a second language teacher. Yes, you may learn similar parts of the language but were you able to grasp the first hand experience on how and why certain words are pronounced.
Once you see what the actual teachings of the Old Testament are you probably will also reject the New Testament. I would recommend take a year and study just the Old Testament and read the tanakh side by side with the nlv or kjv. If you do not explore you are seriously missing out. Even if it does not change your faith you will be a stronger person because wisdom builds strength.Trust Me I was a very strong Christian but God directed me to the truth. A Comparison of Judaism and Christianity Paul the false apostle Paul of Tarsus, Mithraism & Paul's Laws in the New Testament of the Bible Judaism 101: Moshiach: The Messiah Aish HaTorah - Explore Judaism JewishEncyclopedia.com - PROPHET, FALSE: How Did Pagan Customs Mix into Christmas and Easter? Paul the Apostle and Salvation Thru Faith
I certainly hope you don't find this confrontational, shibainu, I don't mean it that way. I actually enjoy these discussions with you.
That being said, I take serious issues with these two comments within the very same post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibainu
I was a very strong Christian but God directed me to the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibainu
Why do I side a little more with Judaism is because they are the chosen people that the torah was given too.
You say God led you to the truth and yet you only side 'a little more with Judaism.'
It appears, from the outside looking in, that you argue more against what you perceive false than you do for what you perceive truth.
If God led you to the Truth, what is it?
I think you perceived yourself a very strong Christian but that now you are convinced that's wrong. OK, I'll give you that, but please share what this truth is that God led you to that isn't at all Christian but isn't quite Judaism either.
I'm asking these questions sincerely striving for us to understand each other, not to try and condemn or attack your current belief.
Last edited by Alpha8207; 09-14-2007 at 08:54 AM..
Reason: Please excuse typos etc, I'm on a mobile unit and unable to proof much at all!
I certainly hope you don't find this confrontational, shibainu, I don't mean it that way. I actually enjoy these discussions with you.
That being said, I take serious issues with these two comments within the very same post:
You say God led you to the truth and yet you only side 'a little more with Judaism.'
It appears, from the outside looking in, that you argue more against what you perceive false than you do for what you perceive truth.
If God led you to the Truth, what is it?
I think you perceived yourself a very strong Christian but that now you are convinced that's wrong. OK, I'll give you that, but please share what this truth is that God led you to that isn't at all Christian but isn't quite Judaism either.
I'm asking these questions sincerely striving for us to understand each other, not to try and condemn or attack your current belief.
Let me Clarify my statement. I was a strong Christian and Now I am not. I side little more with the Jews. I should correct that statement. I believe in what the Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament. But I am not Jewish and I do not practice all rituals. So what I was try to say is that if Christian are on one side and Jews are on the other side of the scale I would tip more to the Jewish side.
But if you are stating that I am uncertain about my choice I would say that is incorrect statement. I am 100% certain that you do not need Jesus to have a relationship with god. That is why I am 100% because god in the Old Testament said it.
I never take offences to anything because we as humans need to debate. It is only when people do not respect one another. I respect your opinion even if it is different because that is what makes people unique.
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