America & Evolution (genesis, quote, believers, belief)

[Kirkwhisper]

scarmig;You're right! I agree! I have *NOT* experienced the supernatural!

Guess why?

I don't have to guess. Either (a) you truly have not been at the right place nor the right time to experience it, or (b) you aren't being truthful and living in denial. It's one or the other.

I don't dictate to you what you believe, but I absolutely refuse to accept what you say is truth without scientific evidence. And I'm sure you are well aware, anecdote is *not* evidence.

I gave you evidence. But you don't like evidence that goes against your deeply seated prejudice. Your attitude is unacceptable. Why should I bother further with you?

I don't care if you don't believe me. I care if you're trying to teach my children this balderdash...

Likewise, I don't want you nor anyone like you teaching my children or grandchildren the lies of an accidental world that happened all by itself or that life arose of its own accord without any scientific basis to believe that such a thing could happen.

But you have?

You've been around the universe and lived long enough to know for certain that your god is the only god, your god is the one god, your god is the true god, and not any other exists in any other time, space, dimension or form.

Reword your statement and the answer can be 'yes'. I have been in enough circumstances, seen enough miraculous events, and been opposed by both atheists and occultists alike and we have shown them God's power and proved what we said every time...no exceptions.

I mean, if that requirement is good enough for me, surely it is good enough for you.

Right. A few years ago I sat in a room full of 14 atheists in Nevada and they challenged me to prove God exists. I prayed for certain things to happen and each time I did, the Lord answered..in front of them all. But like you they were so prejudiced against God and the Bible that they refused to believe what they were seeing before their eyes and thought I was some sort of magician or hypnotist. How tragic.

No, not a one. I've been debunking this stuff for twenty-five years. Anecdote is not evidence. QED.

No you haven't. You just think you have. You live in a continual state of denial.

The written records of Ford have been corroborated and, more importantly, match the evidence left behind by him in this reality.

Correct. And likewise the account of the life of Jesus Christ was corroborated by dozens of witnesses and His power has been experienced by many of those who decided to give their lives to Him. It is purely your prejudice and hatred for Christianity that compels you to live in denial.

The nature and abilities of your god do not match the reality humans live in. Either the reality is false, or the god is.

Baloney. You are not the one who determines that. Your experience is very limited and your prejudice is very great.

Go talk to any cop, any prosecutor, any defense attorney and ask them the value of "eye-witness" accounts.
I dare you.

I already have! My Dad was a policemen for 25 yrs. Do you realize how many people are in prison at this very moment because of eyewitness testimony? Do you realize how many people have been arrested for kidnapping just because ONE witness saw them take another against the law?

What you said is incredibly shallow.

There is a reason why courts view eye-witness and anecdotal evidence as the absolute worst, most unreliable method of proving anything.

But it is still used and it still convicts criminals of wrong doing.

You're just blowing. You've got nothing.

Prove that it was *NOT* the Invisible Pink Unicorn that healed your friend.

Oh, so now you don't deny that they were healed???? So now you want me to prove WHO did it? I get you.

Answer: I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ that they be healed. They were healed instantly.

Until you provide evidence, not that it was your god, but that is was NOT, the Unicorn, I won't believe you.

Of course you won't. You won't believe it even if I ask my healed friends to come on board city/data to testify that they were healed. Been there; done that. You've made it clear that you just don't care.

And while you're pondering that, go look in a mirror.

Why? You are the one with the problem here. You must face your Creator some day and answer for all you've done wrong without forgiveness.

Right, because facts don't require belief. They are facts. One merely "knows" them.

What do you have to do with facts...except to twist them to your bent of thinking?

You made no comment about the two sources I provided concerning the men who died and resurrected from the dead. Why? Those two testimonies alone blow atheism right out of the water. It is such an aboslutely ridiculous potion to hold.

I have plenty offer, even to you.

You've got nothing but a short life and a certain death to look forward to just like all skeptics who take your despairing position.

Been there. Got the t-shirt. And the scars.

And?

Now we've covered the bases.

Bye.

[justme58]

Originally Posted by Kirkwhisper

Really? Then why did you bother typing out this lengthy post?

I did not ask about Niagara falls.

Perhaps you didn't. But what we discussed would apply to any similar water fall including Niagara falls.

Nope, not the same conditions. But see this is proof that you are unschooled in geology or geography. One size does not fit all buddy.

It does seem that you have no education in geology,

I had college geology. I taught geography. And just like all skeptics you...you think you can determine the past without any empirical investigation or observers that could verify your claims.

Yup college geology makes one an expert, I sure hope your students had the fortitude to look into other sources of information and not your lame and obvious distorted ideas.

geography et al and the default godunnit works for you fine, but stop trying to use science to uphold your fairy tale as that just makes you look silly.

Oh, I see. So it was not 'godunnit'....of course not. How foolish of me.

'nature done it'

Nature is NOT my god, nature is a fact and observable.

Your daft questions of no one was there to observe is as daft as your claim of the flood as you were not there, no one was at the "birth of creation" so stop using that lame apologetic.

Ah, but the Lord observed it all & He inspired Moses to give an accurate account of what happened. And Noah and his family saw it and the account was spread throughout the world for milleniums by those who followed them. Though the scriptures give the only truly accurate account I believe those witnesses over you and all skeptics like you. Why? Because of the vast amount of evidence for the flood (the likes of which I have repeatedly posted on these threads) and because I don't trust the word of 'scientists' who live milleniums after-the-fact. Is that clear?

Who told you moses wrote the Torah? Moses is as mythical as your jesus and yahweh/elohim is

But to answer your question as to the supposed varying erosion rates, these are backed up and supported by varves, as a so called "teacher of science" you should not require me to educate you on what they are and how they work.

What a genius. Observe...



That leaf laid there for at least seven years without deteriorating and falling apart...awaiting slow and gradual burial by varves? Who are you trying to fool?

So one pic of a misplaced leaf is supposed to debunk the science of varves.

Need I say more about that? The truth is, skeptic...you don't know what you're talking about.

Nope it is you and your wishful thinking that does not know what he is talking about.

Mind you, anyone that denies geological timescales that are also backed up by radiometric isotope dating

I have available data on rocks dated by different evolutionists in labs that give four different dates...some of which are over 500 million yrs different. Which one would be the correct date, friend? Which 'iron-clad' dating method' should us dumb creationists believe?

Yeah we have been over this crapola with Cambell34 before and no it does not disprove anything of dating methods. All of AiG stuff reflects dead scientists and 50's something science which have all been revised numerous times as technology has improved.

By the way, if you wish to see much more of what I just told you about then tune in to the geology section of answersingenesis.org.au. They have documented this problem countless times and you can read it for yourself.

AiG is for lazy people only who buy into pseudo science. You can tune into noanswersingenisis.org.au and see how each and every claim and including the fake doctorates of those espousing this crapola are discredited and countered. Each and every AiG claim is refuted by real science.

in favor of the old adage of "gawd created the earth old" probably does require some schooling,

Again, I am enlightened! 'gawd didn't create the earth'....nature did it all by itself. Nature created all the laws of science by itself too...right?

Well you must of course explain to us just how your god created light in transit as he forgot to create the sun before he created night and day. The universe and distant galaxies observed now with the hubble telescope kinda blows the whole creation myth of 6-10k out the water.

this would of course have to be relatively elementary because it is obvious that if you were taught any geology, geography, you were likely asleep in class.

Well, actually you are the one about to put me to sleep. Its the same old arrogant know-it-all attitude I've seen in you evolutionists time and time again through the years. It gets old but then there may be honest people reading what we are saying so I put up with it.

It is not a know it all attitude, it is a challenge to you woo woos that insist that the ME bible written and penned by nomadics is somehow authoritative in the 21st century. Anyone that takes your stuff as fact is as delusional as you already. No one is going to dismiss hard scientific evidence in favor of the plethora of rubbish you are postulating.

I have had this discussion with many YEC folk and they all fail to answer the basics.

No, they don't. Check out the answersingenesis site, or ICR, or Christian answers, or.....shall I go on. The answers have been there for decades but you and your comrades deliberately ignore them.

AiG is PSEUDOSCIENCE, maybe you should look up what that means.

The south pole ANTARCTICA ice cores date to around 740k years of data (and they are still coring), forget your Greenland claims of ww2 planes that were on a glacier as a rebuttal, not the same ice core data. The south pole precipitation is less than 2 inches per annum which is waaay less than Greenland.

Gotcha. Ancient Ice

What do you mean, did your god also do this?

AiG claims are ALL debunked over and over and over again.

You aren't telling the truth. Far from it. Their position makes perfect sense to honest people.

Nope here is a linky
No Answers in Genesis

Only die-hard YEC folk buy into the snake oil they are peddling as science. The grand canyon in your back yard Arizona clearly shows sediment layers over eons of time way older than your Young earth claims,

Nope. Not only are you not telling the truth about the Grand Canyon (I was there last spring and observed what I had read about it) and you have a problem of 247 million yrs of missing strata:

Not only so but there are very few places in the world where the so-called geologic column is totally intact from top to bottom...AND, you have the problem of the Alps which are not only 'out-of-order' but totally upside down!


we have a similar one here in SA called the Blyde river canyon and in the back yard the OLDEST caves in the world, Sudwala are set in Precambrian dolomite rock, which was first laid down about 3800 million years ago.

We don't agree. Many locations of the last one hundred yrs have produced the same effect in the development of similar formations. It didn't take millions of yrs after all.

I guess then you should come to the University of Cape Town and reeducate out scientists and geologists. Should I drop them a note to see if they will invite you?

Something you might find interesting:


A man's hat made the 1930's found in one of those formations that is fossilized. It didn't take millions of years. Neither does it take millions of yrs for stalactites or stalagmites to form as is seen in caves.

OOPA do nothing to disprove anything in geology, this is only the grasping at straws by folk like you as real science continues to debunk your beliefs and claims.

So your rebuttal to KNOWN growth rates of cave formations is a petrified hat? Not very bright I see. I kinda expected this as there is no data at AiG wrt to the stuff I introduced from deepest darkest Africa.

These cave are not forming new formation but the Kango Caves which are 750 million years old are; they are not open to the general public to protect the delicate system. The growth is a measured known quantity of approx 1cm per 100 years, the average precipitation of the area is 10 inches per annum so the AiG claims of sudden sulpheric accelerated dissolved lime due to a nearby coal deposit does not work at either of these caves as there is no coal in the immediate vicinity.

You didn't document what they said. Where is your reference? Shall I regard it as heresay?

Err I am not going to do your homework, clue a linky is navy and underlined and the text changes color to orange when you mouse over it. All the evidence are in the links provided. It is obvious you did not even look at them.

AiG has no answers to the geological wonders of nature in Africa as they never get to come to the bosom of the origins of man as sadly all these angry white men find it offensive that black men and white men have a common ancestor that is NOT Noah or his three sons.

Nope, They have much better answers than uniformitarian promoters do. I've been around long enough to make the comparisons and they make much more sense than those pushing the theory of an accidental world that just happened all by itself.

So have I been around a long time and sadly your side of the argument fails repeatedly. I have visited all the places I mentioned and there is an abundance of supportive information disproving the biblical time line.

Your religion is based on a modified Judaic premise yes?

Why is that an issue?

Can you explain how after the events of 70CE

You mean 70 A.D....(Anno Domini) 'in the year of our Lord'.

No 70 CE common era, your lawd has nothing to do with calendar time lines outside the greco roman add ons.

The CE business is novel. But understand that though you skeptics call it CE and BCE (before the common era) both the Christian calendar AND the calendar you prefer base the time frame on the birth of (guess who?) the Lord Jesus Christ. There isn't anything you can do about it.

Wow what a strawman, well defended strawman congratulations

leading to the suggested great diaspora, assuming (theoretically) that two fertile pairs of folk managed to escape to the hills as jesus suggested, would have procreated a descendancy of 310 million in 240 years. The model is that each generation (20 years) marries at 20 and by 30 has had an average of 5 surviving offspring and that they live to the ripe old age of 60-70, at any one time there would be 3 generations co-existing. You can do this on a spreadsheet and here is a snapshot.

Now how come that according to Jewish site statistics (2006) there are only 6-7M Jews world wide. Were there holocausts in the dark ages we are not aware of?

Because there aren't six to seven million Jews world-wide. There are approximately 14 million Jews world wide:
The Jewish Population of the World

Your data and mine based of 2006 figures differ immensely and the dates I have are from a Jewish site so I will take their stats as correct, they have a vested interest after all. Nonetheless, it still would not explain how there are only 14 million when based of the model I presented which granted had no wars and stuff built in, but extrapolated to 2010, there should be hundreds of millions if not billions

Look at the first box in the yellow and use your calculator to add them up. You are in error just like you are in error on the other points we've discussed.

No you are in error as you have not answered the question. Hint my model works as your own USA is approx 240 years old and has a population of ±300 million and that did not even start out with just two breeding pairs now did it? Of course you have had the wars and all that other stuff that usually balances out big families, my model is based on an average of 5 surviving offspring per generation and is pretty feasible.

The point you fail to see is that we are talking here of a chosen people that somehow have not managed to procreate as suggested in their own holy book and achieve a population that would warrant some validity to theirs and xian claims which brings us to the real question of how can any of this be true if they cannot mathematically prove their lack of high population numbers. After all Israel is your folk's prophetic time clock and the entire xian faith revolves around the happenings of their yahwehs and elohims onto which the greco/roman empire tacked on a mithra look-a-like man-god call jesus some 200-400 years after they kicked them out of the "holy land"

You say you are an ex evolutionist (whatever that means) so at one time the facts weighed up and was supported by evidence yet you chose to then ignore all these scientific hordes of peer reviewed (supportive) data for a simpleton "godunnit".

Alas, poor me. I used my critical thinking skills and I saw through the shallow teaching that you and those like you swallowed...hook, line, and sinker. But you can blame Isaac Asimov for my final conversion from evolution to creation. You see I read his book, The Wellsprings of Life in which he taught that the earth began by (gasp!) spontaneous generation of life from non-living chemicals. He even used the words! That, my friend, was the final nail in the coffin of evolution for me.

I was not taught evolution, that part of origins takes up less than 5 days in a typical British school science curriculum, evolution is a fact. I do not read any particular authors and my worldview is formed on multiple pieces of evidence that happen to fit and confirm evolution and a very old earth and universe. There are types like me that are ex-xian, but I still do not know how one is an ex-evolutionist. Exchanging facts for fantasy is all too baffling for a logical thinker like me. Mind you even when I was a xian, I never took genesis as literal and these stories we all outgrew just as we outgrew the "tooth mouse" (in SA) and santa. NO one here is pushing creationism and it has never been taught in schools in my 52 years, only some xian schools here importing ideas from the USA may teach it. However, their certification is invalid and not recognized and must conform to the standard matriculation requirements of our DOE. An elder's daughter graduated from one of these schools and wanted to study medicine, she did SAT's 3 times and failed every time. She had to redo 3 years of standard schooling and now is studying to be a registered nurse when her dream was to become a doctor. Sad but true.

See I have not even begun to discuss the first concepts of evolution and you have already failed big time in simple stats of geological timetables.

You haven't even begun to defend evolution, period.

No I have not even started to discuss it. We are still stuck on the real age of the globe we both occupy 7000 miles apart.

The little population model proposed, although not feasible from two breeding pairs due to known genetic constraints, it will be interesting to get your take on it.

Right. Refer to the above reply.

Speaking of population statistics, check this out:


From Lamber Dolphin: World Population Since Creation

In fact, you can take it and insert the start time at any "known" biblical "historical" event and extrapolate it forward from there to arrive at only ±6.5 million Jews today.

Yawn.

Which goes to show that you are not interested in dialogue but only trolling

I have many more irritating factoids but this should keep you busy awhile. A quick response to this post means you are just trolling and not interested in any adult debate.

Oh and your flexi-preferential time lines are NOT science.

The 'flexi-preferential time line' you are referring to is your belief in millions of yrs of evolution ..............without empirical investigation (pssst: that means...no observer to verify your claims).

No observer was there to verify your claims, so psst, stop using that lame excuse.

We do however have cross referenced verifiable peer reviewed stuff that is open to debunking by REAL scientists at any time but your myth is only open to interpretation of contradictory evidence in the same old book you love to hold to called the bible.

Please refer to your original statement: "I see discussion with you is pointless." I suggest you really believe what you said and not post me again otherwise you may get yourself burned far worse than you just did.

Best wishes.

No I do not bow out of a discussion with YEC folk, it is entertainment for me and many others. Plus we like to see you twisting and spinning to try and make the facts fit your fiction, it does more for "our cause" than it does for yours.

The only claim to fame you folk have is trying to debunk evolution and science as you have nothing plausible to present yourselves.

So far you have not offered any counter to the stuff I presented and you are only doing what AiG has trained you to do and that is to deflect and create strawmen. I really was hoping that you would give a rational YEC perspective to the Victoria Waterfalls, caves, canyons and ice cores but what you are proffering is the same old and has been debunked here at C-D time and again. Of course this has to be expected as pseudo science really has no place in the real scientific community.

Lastly, this thread is of evolution and my entrance was to establish the age of the earth. You have not provided any convincing evidence to counter what I have introduced.

[Shibumi]

Amazing. Simply amazing. A frightful lack of any credibility from KirkWhisper. His contention is that we cannot ascertain anything from the past, even the simplest observations based on logic, careful experimentation and deduction simply because we weren't physically there.

But, take a book that 1) runs flat in the face of any logical examination, 2) has been extensively re-written and severely edited for content by many past tyrannical and megalomaniacal leaders with an agenda of deceit and power-mongering up their sleeves 3) that contains obviously plaguerized content from earlier cultures about their flood and other myths, and 3) constantly stumbles over itself time and again.

Now that's credible.

KirkWhisper, if indeed you did take, pass and then teach geology outside of some Christian school or university, you really didn't pay attention. It's obvious to anyone here with an ounce of intellectual honesty: all geology excepting an ongoing volcano is by default a measure and picture of the past. We know what happened a long time ago precisely by the means we've also determined how, for example, true fossils show up on the tops of mountains.

BTW, we are in the ongoing process of accurately measuring (+/- 2 cm accuracy at present, and improving) the tectonic rise in mountain ranges the world over: GPS & laser altimeters completely debunk your illiterate assumptions that it's not how these things happen.

There has also not been sufficient time since the fabled flood for fossils to have formed. We'd have remains, not fossils. Not to mention the logical errors pointed out about the lack of a singular fossil bed containing land animals, aquatic animals, a salt deposit and drowned vegetation. Sorry; it just ain't so. Proven.

Your total lack of understanding of the genetics of evolution is also flawed, but why bother.

I do understand; it's obvious you are monumentally stubborn, ill-educated on the topic of geology and evolution, or are simply intent on trolling and firing off insulting and dishonest answers. By this demonstration, it's equally obvious you have no interest in open debate where others with far more education and background than you can hope to change your mind.

Go for it. Prove me wrong. Or right.

[scarmig]

Originally Posted by Kirkwhisper

Likewise, I don't want you nor anyone like you teaching my children or grandchildren the lies of an accidental world that happened all by itself or that life arose of its own accord without any scientific basis to believe that such a thing could happen.

Okay, right here, you and I can work together.

Sound crazy?

Listen.

What's the problematic crux of this argument? That government is using compulsion, force, to either teach your kids what you don't want, or my kids what I don't want.

How about you and I work together, kick the politicians in the teeth, and when we're done, you go teach what you want to your kids, and I go teach what I want to mine.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, n'est pas? And we do appear to have a mutual enemy.

Reword your statement and the answer can be 'yes'. I have been in enough circumstances, seen enough miraculous events, and been opposed by both atheists and occultists alike and we have shown them God's power and proved what we said every time...no exceptions.

I mean, if that requirement is good enough for me, surely it is good enough for you.

Right. A few years ago I sat in a room full of 14 atheists in Nevada and they challenged me to prove God exists. I prayed for certain things to happen and each time I did, the Lord answered..in front of them all. But like you they were so prejudiced against God and the Bible that they refused to believe what they were seeing before their eyes and thought I was some sort of magician or hypnotist. How tragic.

Okay, I accept the challenge. Tell me the what, the when, and the where. Pray. Make it happen.

Correct. And likewise the account of the life of Jesus Christ was corroborated by dozens of witnesses and His power has been experienced by many of those who decided to give their lives to Him. It is purely your prejudice and hatred for Christianity that compels you to live in denial.

Do you not understand that I have lived where you are? You and I have traveled opposite paths.

The nature and abilities of your god do not match the reality humans live in. Either the reality is false, or the god is.

Baloney. You are not the one who determines that. Your experience is very limited and your prejudice is very great.

And yet you have the universal truth? By what measure? How is it that your experience, human, subject to bias and interpretation and thereby flawed, is any better than mine?

Go talk to any cop, any prosecutor, any defense attorney and ask them the value of "eye-witness" accounts.

I dare you.

I already have! My Dad was a policemen for 25 yrs. Do you realize how many people are in prison at this very moment because of eyewitness testimony? Do you realize how many people have been arrested for kidnapping just because ONE witness saw them take another against the law?

What you said is incredibly shallow.

Then your father imprisoned people on shaky, unsound evidence. That does not make him a great man.

Prove that it was *NOT* the Invisible Pink Unicorn that healed your friend.

Oh, so now you don't deny that they were healed???? So now you want me to prove WHO did it? I get you.

Answer: I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ that they be healed. They were healed instantly.

I am, for the purpose of exercise, granting you the claim in order to make a point; that point being that you do not have any empirical evidence to back up your claim of who did what to whom and how. You refuse to hold yourself to the same standards you are demanding of me, and that is hypocrisy.

You made no comment about the two sources I provided concerning the men who died and resurrected from the dead. Why? Those two testimonies alone blow atheism right out of the water. It is such an aboslutely ridiculous potion to hold.

It would be disengenuous of me to comment on that which I have no knowledge of, would it not? Yet you claim to have absolute definitive knowledge of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, Allah, Cthulhu, Taoist Alchemian Sorcery, and all other religious beliefs because, of course, you have independently discredited each and every point of each and every one in each and every corner of the universe. Right?

Tell me, what does God look like on Mars?

[Shibumi]

1) Perception is reality.

2) Perception is always biased by our past experiences and our fervent beliefs.

3) Nonetheless, there are standards of PROOF, and one's anecdotal evidence doesn't ever constitute PROOF.

4) The burden of PROOF lays with the claimant (especially when the claims are far-fetched and undocumented).

Quite Simply: Call together some unbiased credible witnesses, with video and audio recording equipment, and produce results as claimed, on demand. It's a simple proposition, but I"m betting my life and soul that KW cannot do so in a controlled environment.

That's all that needs to be said. Or done. Otherwise, shush with the silliness!

[SkepticReport]

Originally Posted by Kirkwhisper

Nope: you are the one in error here.

Oh, goodie! You are still talking to me!

Originally Posted by Kirkwhisper

God never flies off the handle. It's all under control.

That proves that you haven't read the Bible.

Originally Posted by Kirkwhisper

Just what do you think you've got? You found the words of a God who is angry with evil, wrongdoing, and sin of all kinds...and somehow you think that He is wrong and YOU are right.

No, I said you were wrong.

You really have a problem with understanding the written word.

Originally Posted by Kirkwhisper

That leaf laid there for at least seven years without deteriorating and falling apart...awaiting slow and gradual burial by varves? Who are you trying to fool?

I don't get it.

If that leaf laid there for at least seven years without deteriorating and falling apart - isn't that a miracle in itself?

Originally Posted by Kirkwhisper

Not only so but there are very few places in the world where the so-called geologic column is totally intact from top to bottom...AND, you have the problem of the Alps which are not only 'out-of-order' but totally upside down!

Do you deny that continents move, then?

Originally Posted by Kirkwhisper

Speaking of population statistics, check this out:
...
From Lamber Dolphin: World Population Since Creation

Where did he get those numbers from?

Since you are still talking to me, here are the unanswered questions, for your convenience:

• Do you really believe that, since we don't have "empirical investigation" of the great pyramids in Egypt, they do not exist?
• Have you read "On the Origin of Species"?
• Why does it mean abiogenesis didn't happen, if we have no observer of it?
• Did you even bother to consider why that plane crashed? Was that not the work of your God? Why did he kill people, in order to make his presence known by resurrecting one person?
• Let's assume for a moment that what you say is true, and that these people were resurrected from the dead. Doesn't that put them on the same level as Jesus? They will have to be included in the Christian religion as the peers of Jesus?
• If I were "running", who is responsible? Wouldn't that be your God?
• What would you say if I told you that I am your god, testing you?
• What would it take for you to accept that evolution is a fact?
• If you think you have science on your side, how would you want science to be taught in your nation's schools? In accordance to your bible?
• If the things of the Spirit can only be discerned if it comes from the Holy Spirit, does that mean that you have gotten your belief directly from your god/the Holy Spirit/Jesus?
• You said that man also had free will. That means that accidents happen, that are not the will of your god. How is that not "believing in an accidental world"?

The questions won't go away, you know.

[Kirkwhisper]

Shibumi;1) Perception is reality.

No, the truth is reality. Perceptions might be mistaken. That's why multiple witnesses, recordings, and other extraneous evidence is so necessary to establish the truth. We have all those.

2) Perception is always biased by our past experiences and our fervent beliefs.

And when atheists themselves have experiences they do not believe in? Then what? That theory goes out the window. We've converted atheists also.

3) Nonetheless, there are standards of PROOF, and one's anecdotal evidence doesn't ever constitute PROOF.

And when the skeptics arbitrarily declare any personal witness or evidence as 'anecdotal' then no proof is possible no matter how truthful the account might be.

4) The burden of PROOF lays with the claimant (especially when the claims are far-fetched and undocumented).

Quite. The burden of proof lies with those who claim the insane notion that the world is an accidental place that happened all by itself and that life developed of its own accord without a single example that nature can do such a thing. They have NO proof and NO examples to verify their claims. Since all things observed have an a priori cause then their position is therefore in error.

Quite Simply: Call together some unbiased credible witnesses, with video and audio recording equipment, and produce results as claimed, on demand. It's a simple proposition, but I"m betting my life and soul that KW cannot do so in a controlled environment.

There is no such thing. We all have biases.

That's all that needs to be said. Or done. Otherwise, shush with the silliness!

There is no silliness, foolish one. Did you bother looking at the video clips I provided on numerous occasions on this thread alone? Go try and tell the doctors and nurses who cared for those men who resurrected from the dead that it did not happne. Just try it. Be a big brave skeptic and get on the telephone or take the time to go interview all involved and see if you can persuade them that those two men did not come back to life after being pronounced dead.

We can talk later perhaps.

[scarmig]

[quote=Kirkwhisper;12781884]

Originally Posted by scarmig

Okay, right here, you and I can work together.

Nope. I don't think you have an honest bone in your body.

I've got at least one that's pretty straightforward, according to my wife.

If you really wanted to know the truth you would go so far as to contact the people involved in those accounts and interview them for yourself. But no, you would rather sit behind your computer and peck out a few cheap remarks to those you hate and mock. It makes you feel better about your chosen irrational position.

If you really wanted to back up your claims you would take the time to understand what evidence is and then provide some.

Tell me foolish one...shall I go and inform those I saw healed that they were not really healed in the name of Jesus Christ even though we used His name in the doing of it? Shall I tell those who saw the miraculous with me that we were all just hypnotized (countless times!) and that we never saw supernatural activity?

Well, guess what...I won't.

You should. You could say, "I don't know how this happened. I'm glad it did. But cannot honestly say with certainty who did what."

Tell me, what does God look like on Mars?

What does Mars have to do with it, genius?

Okay, I'll step you through it since you can't seem to follow.

You claim that I am wrong because I have not experienced the width and breadth of the universe. This is the standard by which you are holding me to in order to discredit my words.

Unless you are flaming hypocrite, you should have no problem if I apply the same standard to your words.

Ergo, if you have not been to Mars, you have not experienced the width and breadth of the universe. You have not checked to see if there is a different god on mars. You have not explored far enough or wide enough for your words to have any credibility, according to your own standards.

So, either accept the standard for yourself, rescind the idea that it applies to me, or label yourself a flaming hypocrite in the eyes of all.


See, this is why you have to be careful when you go on the ad hominem attack and try to discredit the person instead of the ideas. It's a double-edged sword that can be turned back on you very easily.

[Kirkwhisper]

justme58; Nope, not the same conditions. But see this is proof that you are unschooled in geology or geography. One size does not fit all buddy.

My you are a glutton for punishment. You got your butt royally kicked and didn't even feel it!

Yup college geology makes one an expert, I sure hope your students had the fortitude to look into other sources of information and not your lame and obvious distorted ideas.

I didn't say I was an expert. Those are your words.

Nature is NOT my god, nature is a fact and observable.

So are the works of God by those who observe them. Nature was created by God and it does only what God programed it to do. Nature doesn't create life from non-living matter. If you differ with then provide an example.


Who told you moses wrote the Torah? Moses is as mythical as your jesus and yahweh/elohim is

I think you are mythical.

There...you see! It was just as easy for me to declare you non-existent as it was for you to declare a world famous figure from history who is well known to have handed down the law of God to the Hebrews. You see, skeptic person...you pick and choose what parts of history you will believe as opposed to those things that you won't believe. That all depends on your personal prejudices. History is a smorgasborg to atheists. But there is more evidence of Moses existence than there is Pharaoah Aknneton. But the scriptures (beginning with the Dead Sea Scrolls 275 B.C.) are enough.

So one pic of a misplaced leaf is supposed to debunk the science of varves.

One? I provided two. Go back and count them, student.

Nope it is you and your wishful thinking that does not know what he is talking about.

But you didn't even answer the question about that one!!! So how do you have the right to complain?

Yeah we have been over this crapola with Cambell34 before and no it does not disprove anything of dating methods. All of AiG stuff reflects dead scientists and 50's something science which have all been revised numerous times as technology has improved.

Nope. Many of the people at AIG have rejected evolution just like I did. I am an ex-evolutionist.

AiG is for lazy people only who buy into pseudo science.

Hogwash. You believe in a fairy tale. Evolution is not science and never was.

You can tune into noanswersingenisis.org.au and see how each and every claim and including the fake doctorates of those espousing this crapola are discredited and countered. Each and every AiG claim is refuted by real science.

Most of the information I provided on the city/data threads did not come from AIG. Bother looking closely next time.

Check out the fossil record by Dr. Sean Pitman...but prepare to gulp real hard. The Fossil Record

Well you must of course explain to us just how your god created light in transit as he forgot to create the sun before he created night and day. The universe and distant galaxies observed now with the hubble telescope kinda blows the whole creation myth of 6-10k out the water.
It is not a know it all attitude, it is a challenge to you woo woos that insist that the ME bible written and penned by nomadics is somehow authoritative in the 21st century. Anyone that takes your stuff as fact is as delusional as you already. No one is going to dismiss hard scientific evidence in favor of the plethora of rubbish you are postulating.

You're starting to bore me. Opinions, opinions, opinions. Is this the best you can do?

AiG is PSEUDOSCIENCE, maybe you should look up what that means.
What do you mean, did your god also do this?
Nope here is a linky
No Answers in Genesis

You mean the website run by comedians?

I guess then you should come to the University of Cape Town and reeducate out scientists and geologists. Should I drop them a note to see if they will invite you?

Say, theres plenty of evidence in your neck of the woods for the Noahic flood! The Keroo formation has millions of animals that were fossilzed during that great cataclysm. Maybe you should start there for your re-education.

OOPA do nothing to disprove anything in geology, this is only the grasping at straws by folk like you as real science continues to debunk your beliefs and claims.

So your rebuttal to KNOWN growth rates of cave formations is a petrified hat? Not very bright I see. I kinda expected this as there is no data at AiG wrt to the stuff I introduced from deepest darkest Africa.
Err I am not going to do your homework, clue a linky is navy and underlined and the text changes color to orange when you mouse over it. All the evidence are in the links provided. It is obvious you did not even look at them.
So have I been around a long time and sadly your side of the argument fails repeatedly. I have visited all the places I mentioned and there is an abundance of supportive information disproving the biblical time line.


No 70 CE common era, your lawd has nothing to do with calendar time lines outside the greco roman add ons.

'lawd'? What's that, genius?

You just lied and so I am kicking you out of this debate.

Quote: An abbreviation used with a date, indicating how many years have passed since the birth of Jesus. The abbreviation may appear before the date (a.d. 1988), or it may appear after the date (1988 a.d.). It stands for anno Domini, a Latin phrase meaning “in the year of our Lord.” Answers.com

Quote: AD - in the Christian era; used before dates after the supposed year Christ was born; "in AD 200"
A.D., anno Domini The Free Dictionary

Quote:
Anno Domini. (²n"½ d¼m"…-nº", d¼m"…-n¶) adv. Abbr. A.D. In a specified year of the Christian era. [Medieval Latin : ann½, in the year + Domini, genitive of Dominus, Lord.] American Heritage Dictionary.
Wow what a strawman, well defended strawman congratulations


Your data and mine based of 2006 figures differ immensely and the dates I have are from a Jewish site so I will take their stats as correct, they have a vested interest after all. Nonetheless, it still would not explain how there are only 14 million when based of the model I presented which granted had no wars and stuff built in, but extrapolated to 2010, there should be hundreds of millions if not billions

First, you complained as to how can it be that only 6 million or so...and now its 14 million. Make up your mind.
RankCountryJews% of World Jewish Population 1Israel5,313,80040.6%2United States 5,275,00040.3%3France491,5003.8%4Canada373,5002.9%5United Kingdom297,0002.3%6Russia228,0001.7%7Argentina184,5001.4%8Germany118,0000.9%9Australia103,0000.8%10Brazil96,5000.7%11Ukraine80,0000.6%12South Africa72,0000.6%13Hungary49,7000.4%14Mexico39,8000.3%15Belgium31,2000.2%
The Jewish Population of the World

Add it up: total approx. 13,000,000 Jews according to these figures. Not even close to what you said. You aren't even trying to be truthful.

Hint my model works as your own USA is approx 240 years old and has a population of ±300 million and that did not even start out with just two breeding pairs now did it? Of course you have had the wars and all that other stuff that usually balances out big families, my model is based on an average of 5 surviving offspring per generation and is pretty feasible.

The point you fail to see is that we are talking here of a chosen people that somehow have not managed to procreate as suggested in their own holy book and achieve a population that would warrant some validity to theirs and xian claims which brings us to the real question of how can any of this be true if they cannot mathematically prove their lack of high population numbers. After all Israel is your folk's prophetic time clock and the entire xian faith revolves around the happenings of their yahwehs and elohims onto which the greco/roman empire tacked on a mithra look-a-like man-god call jesus some 200-400 years after they kicked them out of the "holy land"
I was not taught evolution, that part of origins takes up less than 5 days in a typical British school science curriculum, evolution is a fact. I do not read any particular authors and my worldview is formed on multiple pieces of evidence that happen to fit and confirm evolution and a very old earth and universe. There are types like me that are ex-xian, but I still do not know how one is an ex-evolutionist. Exchanging facts for fantasy is all too baffling for a logical thinker like me. Mind you even when I was a xian, I never took genesis as literal and these stories we all outgrew just as we outgrew the "tooth mouse" (in SA) and santa. NO one here is pushing creationism and it has never been taught in schools in my 52 years, only some xian schools here importing ideas from the USA may teach it. However, their certification is invalid and not recognized and must conform to the standard matriculation requirements of our DOE. An elder's daughter graduated from one of these schools and wanted to study medicine, she did SAT's 3 times and failed every time. She had to redo 3 years of standard schooling and now is studying to be a registered nurse when her dream was to become a doctor. Sad but true.

My daughter is a PhD in medicine. I privately tutored her since she was in the fourth grade. My third daughter is a school teacher working on another degree in education. I taught her since she was in the first grade.

No I have not even started to discuss it. We are still stuck on the real age of the globe we both occupy 7000 miles apart.

You are the one who is stuck.

Which goes to show that you are not interested in dialogue but only trolling
No observer was there to verify your claims, so psst, stop using that lame excuse.

Noah was an observer. It was HIS account that spread throughout the world. Moses was inspired by God and a witness to the Exodus. You can deny history all you wish but you cannot undo what acutally happened.

We do however have cross referenced verifiable peer reviewed stuff that is open to debunking by REAL scientists at any time but your myth is only open to interpretation of contradictory evidence in the same old book you love to hold to called the bible.
No I do not bow out of a discussion with YEC folk, it is entertainment for me and many others. Plus we like to see you twisting and spinning to try and make the facts fit your fiction, it does more for "our cause" than it does for yours.

The only claim to fame you folk have is trying to debunk evolution and science as you have nothing plausible to present yourselves.

You really know how to bore a guy, don't you?

So far you have not offered any counter to the stuff I presented and you are only doing what AiG has trained you to do and that is to deflect and create strawmen. I really was hoping that you would give a rational YEC perspective to the Victoria Waterfalls, caves, canyons and ice cores but what you are proffering is the same old and has been debunked here at C-D time and again. Of course this has to be expected as pseudo science really has no place in the real scientific community.

Lastly, this thread is of evolution and my entrance was to establish the age of the earth. You have not provided any convincing evidence to counter what I have introduced.

Bye.

[Kirkwhisper]

scarmig:

I've got at least one that's pretty straightforward, according to my wife.

Would someone kindly inform him that we are done. We've covered the bases.

Best wishes.