All beliefs should be respected. (Buddhists, myth, Islam, Muslim)
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Only those who would try to insert their own personal moral opinions into law, public education, and government institutions. They're the ones that deserve to be called out and are not worthy of my respect.
Those of you who live and let live, don't come knocking on my door, don't tell me I should just die and go to hell, and don't try to get your religious beliefs taught in public schools or put into the laws of the country are fine.
The problem is that you and others cast wide derision at Christianity in general for what you see as the irrationality of the faith as opposed to targeting your derision at those who try to push their opinions on you unfairly for doing just that.
As for "those who would try to insert their own personal moral opinions into law, public education, and government institutions," well that would include every person, regardless of spiritual faith or lack thereof.
People deserve to be respected, including their rights to believe what they want.
Respecting the belief itself is a different story. You only should respect the beliefs you find rational and not horrible/evil. However, in respect to the person who holds such beliefs, you ought not ridicule or deride or attack him for it. If you talk to such a person, you ought to maintain a level of respectful discourse.
This is something it seems atheists and agnostics have the most trouble understanding on these forums. They believe that certain beliefs and the people who hold them are worthy of derision, and they proceed to deride them. That is their morality, I suppose.
People seem to take offense when I accurately describe their beliefs. They say I'm being disrespectful, and "deride" them. When in fact their belief are funny... Look at south park.. they base about 1% of shows ripping on the obvious laughable parts of religion. (see south park Scientology, and Mormonism)
This reminds me of what same harris said.
The problem is that you and others cast wide derision at Christianity in general for what you see as the irrationality of the faith as opposed to targeting your derision at those who try to push their opinions on you unfairly for doing just that.
There are many religious people here whom I could point to as good examples of their faith. I don't deride Christianity -- I deride rabid christers, or any blind fundie of any faith that isn't willing to see common logic. There's a huge difference between them and the average believer in a religion.
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As for "those who would try to insert their own personal moral opinions into law, public education, and government institutions," well that would include every person, regardless of spiritual faith or lack thereof.
Nope. I don't. I want all religious flotsam out of the laws of my country. It belongs in churches, not government, not public schools, and not laws. If you want to know why, feel free to ask.
Only those who would try to insert their own personal moral opinions into law, public education, and government institutions. They're the ones that deserve to be called out and are not worthy of my respect.
Those of you who live and let live, don't come knocking on my door, don't tell me I should just die and go to hell, and don't try to get your religious beliefs taught in public schools or put into the laws of the country are fine.
I actually think there's a very fine line with what should be respected and what shouldn't in terms of beliefs. For the purposes of the conversation and because we're on the religion forum, it's probably only natural that I should apply my train of thought to religious beliefs.
First and foremost, I have a very strong belief (or opinion, if you will) that many religious ideals about what a God is or isn't is largely taken from previously held conclusions in the first place. In other words, I don't think that people hold such antipathy towards various classifications of other people and actions (homosexuals, Jews, etc...) because the Bible (or other Holy Book) says so but because those conceptions and opinions are already made up in the mind of the individual whether unknowingly or knowingly.
It is how the doctrine is applied to these previously held conceptions that constitutes a large part of the belief system in question. We can externalize and project our thoughts of what is moral and immoral much easier when we project them onto a deity or God. It alleviates the personal responsibility of having to be held accountable for predisposed opinions and thoughts in the first place. However, once the projected image of a deity is cast over the belief or opinion we can now say "I believe this to be immoral because God says so."
It is for this reason that I feel religion has caused so many problems throughout history. In most cases, it has served as a crutch for those less responsible and vindictive to apply their character traits onto a deity. So, this should leave us with another element of questioning...
If some or most (I will not cast a blanket statement) beliefs are pre-opinionated in the first place and henceforth projected onto something externalized, should we be mandated to hold that belief in respect simply because the application of "God said so," has been applied?
I don't think we should. I don't think that merely conjecturing the "God Card" deserves respect especially when the ideas are mostly preformed and applied to "spiritual" incantations in the first place.
In my humble opinion, a lot can be said about a person based on the kind of God they worship. Those who claim to worship Gods that are vindictive, spiteful, and resemble nothing but some of the worst parts of humanity often resemble the worst parts of humanity themselves and are typically vindictive and spiteful as well. Why is this and is that not clearly a projection of the person in the first place?
But, I know believers who are loving, caring and good people as well. It's interesting to me that the God these people worship typically happens to be reflective of these people as well. It adds to my sense of thought that people are, in a sense, worshiping a projected image of themselves in the first place. I don't mean this in the sense most people think (like a caricatured, narcissistic jerk standing in the mirror and worshiping himself) but that it fulfills a sense of self and egotistical necessity within a person and that's why people tend to attach to these beliefs in the first place.
My standing is that beliefs should only be respected only in so much as the person holding them should be respected. A hateful, vindictive and power-hungry jerk who uses the "projection" of God to get what he wants probably deserves very little respect in the first place because, in all sincerity, they as well as their beliefs are probably hateful, vindictive and full of hunger for power.
I would just say that yes, acceptance is the goal, not tolerance. However, three things to consider:
1) one can accept someone with out being what that someone is. I can have a friend who is an Atheist can be fine with him, and Atheism, without being an Atheist myself. I would accept someone as a person and respect that they don't want to hear about prayers and all that without myself being an Athiest, just as I can respect a gay friend without being gay or ever practicing homosexuality myself ( well, there was that one time I was playing truth or dare*joking*)
2) No one is ever accepted by everyone. There are plenty of people in America who can't accept black people, even though there is a black president in the White House. You will always have that intolerant fringe no matter who you are (plenty of "kill whitey!" black racists exist too) and we do have to accept that there will always be those who just don't like us, while working towards a day when they are a small minority indeed.
3) one cannot expect to be accepted if one does not accept others himself. I mean, one cannot say "CHRISTIANITY IS STUPID AND THEY ARE DELUSIONAL, IRRATIONAL blah blah blah" and then seriously expect to be accepted as an Atheist. Allot more people will respect a given person's views and accept him or her if the said person would just be willing to accept the views of others first.
Wow, you finally post something I can agree with.
I would just say that yes, acceptance is the goal, not tolerance. However, three things to consider:
1) one can accept someone with out being what that someone is. I can have a friend who is an Atheist can be fine with him, and Atheism, without being an Atheist myself. I would accept someone as a person and respect that they don't want to hear about prayers and all that without myself being an Athiest, just as I can respect a gay friend without being gay or ever practicing homosexuality myself ( well, there was that one time I was playing truth or dare*joking*)
2) No one is ever accepted by everyone. There are plenty of people in America who can't accept black people, even though there is a black president in the White House. You will always have that intolerant fringe no matter who you are (plenty of "kill whitey!" black racists exist too) and we do have to accept that there will always be those who just don't like us, while working towards a day when they are a small minority indeed.
3) one cannot expect to be accepted if one does not accept others himself. I mean, one cannot say "CHRISTIANITY IS STUPID AND THEY ARE DELUSIONAL, IRRATIONAL blah blah blah" and then seriously expect to be accepted as an Atheist. Allot more people will respect a given person's views and accept him or her if the said person would just be willing to accept the views of others first.
What are you talking about? You and I have agree on many things. I don't need to know your homosexual tendency.
I accept Christians, as humans. But I see their beliefs, as delusional, irrational, and in some just plan evil.
I have manage to rid myself of these tribalism tendency which seem to be built into all of us. I have done this by viewing everyone, no mater how stupid I think their beliefs are, as part of my "tribe".
We, non believers, are expected to be so respectful of religion BUT for the most part "they" don't respect our beliefs. Most people look at you with horror when they find you are an atheist or agnostic. And if they DO know you are a non believer they just may avoid you like the plague. Like if they see you at Wal Mart they'll run down the next isle just so they don't have to speak to you.
We, non believers, are expected to be so respectful of religion BUT for the most part "they" don't respect our beliefs. Most people look at you with horror when they find you are an atheist or agnostic. And if they DO know you are a non believer they just may avoid you like the plague. Like if they see you at Wal Mart they'll run down the next isle just so they don't have to speak to you.
I was about to reply that that is so untrue, then I saw, next to your user name, where you live...
If you left the Bible Belt and moved up here to Jersey or somewhere else, no one would bother you and the most "religion" in your face you'll see is a VERY large "bling bling" gold cross wore around the necks of the various sub-specieses of Gudio and assorted Hoodlums.
I was about to reply that that is so untrue, then I saw, next to your user name, where you live...
If you left the Bible Belt and moved up here to Jersey or somewhere else, no one would bother you and the most "religion" in your face you'll see is a VERY large "bling bling" gold cross wore around the necks of the various sub-specieses of Gudio and assorted Hoodlums.
Ha Ha! You are sooo right! I am from further North (Virginia) and they are normal up there! But down here....wow....UN-believable! I'd fear for my life if I "came out of the closet" here!
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well, there was that one time I was playing truth or dare*joking*)
I don't need to know your homosexual tendency.
