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Old 10-23-2009, 10:34 PM
 
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Deleted as not appropriate.

So, in the Bible:
1 what does the Word of God say about the Person and work of Jesus Christ of the Word?
-and did the NT Jewish and Gentile Believers worship Jesus Christ as God, the very YHWH Elohym, of the OT, come in flesh, and pray to Him?


2 What does it mean to us to know Who His Person is and what His work is?

3 Are we authorized [do we have authority] by the Holy spirit to "pray" "in His/Jesus' name" as a son of God, if we have never been born again into His One Living Spirit?


4 How can we test the spirits? -and what does it mean to say that Christ is come in flesh, and why is one who denies that fact of His incarnation called an anti-Christ, in the Bible?

5 What is the incarnation?


6 Biblically, Are there many false Jesus' in many false religions; -and even though the deceived people may be nice neighbors and sincere practitioners of their religion, will that get them into heaven if they are just sincere, nice, and practice their religion?

I will use Scriptures of the OT and NT, and corroborate them with other ancient writings used by the faithful before Jesus came in flesh, to see how they agree on Who Jesus is, and what "Who He is" means to us.

So next post:
What do the Scriptures teach about the Person and work of Jesus Christ?

Last edited by june 7th; 10-29-2009 at 06:20 AM..
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
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Why do I have the impression that you've got the answers to your own questions ready to throw at anyone who veers from the path you've laid out?
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
Why do I have the impression that you've got the answers to your own questions ready to throw at anyone who veers from the path you've laid out?
Who is the real Jesus Christ, biblically speaking?
My usage of Scripture will be showing His Person as Deity, and as one person in the Trinity, whose name is YHWH [badly translated to English as a made up word "Jehovah" -or just translated "LORD", in the AV; but I like to use the Hebrew rendering for His name because it is self descriptive in that it is not a spoken word, but a "breathing", and YHWH indeed means "BREATH/LIFE".
I will be showing that Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is the very Person of YHWH, come in flesh of second human being creaion, as "Kinsman/Redeemer" to Adam; and that He, alone, is the only Person in the triune YHWH whom any created being has ever, does ever, or shall ever see; and I will show that He was promised to come and planned to come, from the beginning, as YHWH in flesh of second creation so as to be the Kinsman/Redeemer to the entire race of Adam.

In Genesis 1, YHWH Elohym -a plurality of persons- is seen as having one, single, "seen" image/similitude/Tselem; and He made Adam as the first "Ish", and made Adam two persons, but one Adam kind.
in that one image of YHWH Elohym, and that one image in which Adam was to come is the same body of flesh that Jesus the Christ put on like a garment, at the incarnation.
Scriptures on those facts, next post.
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:12 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
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Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Who is the real Jesus Christ, biblically speaking?
My usage of Scripture will be showing His Person as Deity, and as one person in the Trinity, whose name is YHWH [badly translated to English as a made up word "Jehovah" -or just translated "LORD", in the AV; but I like to use the Hebrew rendering for His name because it is self descriptive in that it is not a spoken word, but a "breathing", and YHWH indeed means "BREATH/LIFE".
I will be showing that Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is the very Person of YHWH, come in flesh of second human being creaion, as "Kinsman/Redeemer" to Adam; and that He, alone, is the only Person in the triune YHWH whom any created being has ever, does ever, or shall ever see; and I will show that He was promised to come and planned to come, from the beginning, as YHWH in flesh of second creation so as to be the Kinsman/Redeemer to the entire race of Adam.

In Genesis 1, YHWH Elohym -a plurality of persons- is seen as having one, single, "seen" image/similitude/Tselem; and He made Adam as the first "Ish", and made Adam two persons, but one Adam kind.
in that one image of YHWH Elohym, and that one image in which Adam was to come is the same body of flesh that Jesus the Christ put on like a garment, at the incarnation.
Scriptures on those facts, next post.
Before you start 'proving' anything about Jesus from Scripture, could you

(a) give any good reason why we should believe what scripture claims

(b) give any good reason why we should believe what the Gospels claim about Jesus

(c) give any good reason to suppose that the Pentateuch has anything much to do with that Gospel Jesus?

You have to make a pretty good case for all that before your argument becomes anything more than a futile waste of reading time.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:52 PM
 
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1 what does the Word of God say about the Person and work of Jesus Christ of the Word?

In Genesis 1, YHWH Elohym -a plurality of persons- is seen as having one, single, "seen" image/similitude/Tselem; and He made Adam as the first "Ish", and made Adam two persons, but one Adam kind.
in that one image of YHWH Elohym, and that one image in which Adam was to come is the same body of flesh that Jesus the Christ put on like a garment, at the incarnation.

For my Scripture posts I use the original Hebrew words for "man", in the texts; whether that original word is Adam, gebor, enowsh, ish, or any other Hebrew word, which usage is important for understanding context and understanding who and what we of Adam were created to be, and what we are, since the fall, and also is contextually important for understanding Who and What Jesus Christ is -and is Not.

I also use the original Hebrew word "YHWH", in my posts, for the English AV version word "LORD", or "Jehovah", because that is what is in the Hebrew text. The word, "YHWH", is in itself self explanatory for Who and What YHWH, the Only Creator, is.
YHWH means "LIFE/BREATH", and this is His own "Memorial" forever, in that He has stamped it as His own "brand name" on every living soul, for each intake and outlet of breath is a breathing of that name; "YH-WH".
I will also use the Hebrew to English word Elohym [plural], and El [singular], for God.

In my posts, I will show that Jesus Christ is YHWH, come in flesh of second Man creation to be the only Kinsman/Redeemer to Adam; and that He planned to come in flesh before He created Adam, "in His own image".

In my posts, I will also show that the body itself, is the "image" of YHWH in which Adam was made, to be a "house" for the Glory of YHWH to dwell in.

In my posts, I will also show that Adam is the first human being house/temple not made of hands for the GLory to indwell, and that the second temple/house not made of hands for the glory to dwell in is called "Israel", -and not "Adam". Jesus Christ is not "an Adam person", in His New Creation flesh, and His New Man name is "Israel", and I will show that.

In my posts, I will also show that Adam fell, as a son of God -"a prince/sar/ruler", who was made a "son of God" from the dust of this earth, and created as a "prince" to sit enthroned on Mount Eden as the created, human being "god/el", ruling his dominion from Mount Eden's throne, over the entire "breadth of the earth", which includes Mount Eden.
"Mount Eden" is also "Mount Zion", above, a realm which Adam was cast out of, but which is the realm of "the breadth of the earth", where the City of God is being built.

In my posts, I will also show that YHWH is come in flesh of second creation human being flesh, to ransom back the seed of Adam and the dominion given to Adam; which dominion Adam lost at the fall -and lost irrevocably.

In my posts, I will show that the second Adam, the New Man, who is Jesus Christ, has ransomed the dominion Adam lost, and will take possession of it, and will grant a share of it to all His own adopted sons, who are adopted out of Adam and into His New Man name, to reign and rule with Him forever, over this earth and its great breadth, which Adam lost a place in, and got cast out of.
Redemption is about getting restored to our inheritance as sons of God, with our Firstborn [Israel] ruling from Mount Eden/Mount Zion, over this earth, which He purchased as His own by His Kinsman/Redeemer blood Atonement, and promises to share with us, whom He adopts as his own sons in the New creation Man name.

Gen 1:26 And Elohym said, Let us make Adam in our image/tselem , after our likeness/similitude: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So Elohym created Adam in His [own] image/ tselem, in the image/tselem of Elohym created He him; male and female created he them.

Gen 5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that Elohym created Adam, in the likeness/similitude of God made He him;

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So YHWH Elohym has one image/tselem, one likeness/similitude, and Adam was made male and female, one Adam, in that image.

By this I am establishing that YHWH, the Elohym, is One YHWH, just as Adam, the male and female and all the seed of Adan, are one Adam. Through all the multiplying of the created seed from the loins of the head Adam, there is never anything other than an "Adam" multiplied; whether male or female, we are all "Adam", "one Adam", as to our kind.

So YHWH Elohym is One YHWH, and is never multiplying His kind, but is a multiplicity of three persons, as revealed in the Word; and self existing and unchanging.

Adam is made in the one single image of YHWH, and that image is the body of flesh which was to come, and is come, by the incarnation.
Adam is the "figure/tupos/copy" of Him [Jesus the Christ] who was to come [in flesh].


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure/tupos of him that was to come.

So, biblically speaking, what did YHWH'S Similitude/likeness/image/tselem look like, before He came in flesh?

Next post: Jesus Christ in the OT, as YHWH Elohym's, only "seen" image; preincarnation.

The early Church sang a hymn about Jesus Christ which Paul quotes a line from:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Colorado
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No Jesus.
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Old 10-24-2009, 05:21 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Okay. I had a thread within a couple weeks ago and it was highjacked by a member of another religion, using it to proselytize his religion, and I did not know that I should have complained at that time and had his posts deleted from that thread. Oh well.

So, in the Bible:
1 what does the Word of God say about the Person and work of Jesus Christ of the Word?
-and did the NT Jewish and Gentile Believers worship Jesus Christ as God, the very YHWH Elohym, of the OT, come in flesh, and pray to Him?


2 What does it mean to us to know Who His Person is and what His work is?

3 Are we authorized [do we have authority] by the Holy spirit to "pray" "in His/Jesus' name" as a son of God, if we have never been born again into His One Living Spirit?


4 How can we test the spirits? -and what does it mean to say that Christ is come in flesh, and why is one who denies that fact of His incarnation called an anti-Christ, in the Bible?

5 What is the incarnation?


6 Biblically, Are there many false Jesus' in many false religions; -and even though the deceived people may be nice neighbors and sincere practitioners of their religion, will that get them into heaven if they are just sincere, nice, and practice their religion?

I will use Scriptures of the OT and NT, and corroborate them with other ancient writings used by the faithful before Jesus came in flesh, to see how they agree on Who Jesus is, and what "Who He is" means to us.

So next post:
What do the Scriptures teach about the Person and work of Jesus Christ?
I only really want to answer one question due to time right now.

But the scriptures teach that Jesus is God, The Father called Him God and The entire bible. People just over look due to being ignorant, just my opinion.

Hebrew 1:8

8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

How can anyone fight with what God says, but they do? They just refuse to believe it. Anyway, Jesus is God, equal with the Father, just as well as The Holy Spirit.

Three persons, one God, who work together in a perfect union.

Yes, there are is false Jesus that people are believing in. I even heard of a person that says that Jesus comes to them, but they don't believe in the bible, and the very nature that they describe sounds nothing like Jesus. Anyway, spirits are very deceiving and so many are being deceived.

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 10-24-2009 at 05:57 PM..
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by justme58 View Post
This thread belongs in the xian forum, but I guess you are not welcome there.

You are certainly not going to win any converts here in R&P
This is the "religion and philosophy" forum. Philosophy means "love/philo" of "wisdom/sophia".
Jesus Christ is God, who is "the Wisdom of God in mystery hidden", to be revealed [in flesh] in His pre-appointed season, as the Savior of all the race of Adam [for whosoever will], by His once for all Blood Atonement; and the One who would ransom back the lost dominion which Adam [former] son of God, sold into sin and corruption at the fall.

The literal Greek of 1Co 2:7 - states that the Apostles and preachers of the Gospel of Christ preached Jesus Christ as "Sophia/Wisdom; God in mystery hidden, ordained before the world for our glory".

[ Original: Greek] But we speak wisdom/sophia God in mystery, hidden ,which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 10-24-2009 at 09:10 PM..
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
I only really want to answer one question due to time right now.

But the scriptures teach that Jesus is God, The Father called Him God and The entire bible. People just over look due to being ignorant, just my opinion.

Hebrew 1:8

8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

How can anyone fight with what God says, but they do? They just refuse to believe it. Anyway, Jesus is God, equal with the Father, just as well as The Holy Spirit.

Three persons, one God, who work together in a perfect union.

Yes, there are is false Jesus that people are believing in. I even heard of a person that says that Jesus comes to them, but they don't believe in the bible, and the very nature that they describe sounds nothing like Jesus. Anyway, spirits are very deceiving and so many are being deceived.
Yes, they are; many are being deceived and deceiving willfully, though.
Anyone who seeks after God Himself, to know Him, is led by the Light [which Light is Christ, who is the Living Spirit and who is come in flesh] which lights every man that comes into the world, in the hopes that they will seek Him who seeks them, by that Light lighting them.
And he that seeks, finds Jesus Christ, who is the One Way, the One Truth, and the One Life.
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Next post: Jesus Christ in the OT, as YHWH Elohym's, only "seen" image; preincarnation.

The early Church sang a hymn about Jesus Christ which Paul quotes a line from:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
So, preincarnation, Jesus Christ appeared to men in the OT accounts in the form of "the Messenger/angel of YHWH", who is called God/El, and also called YHWH Himself [Hosea12:3-5], and as the "[one] similitude of YHWH", and as the "Glory of YHWH", and also, in His created temple in heaven, He was seen by Isaiah, seated on the throne, as "YHWH of hosts".

John makes it clear that Isaiah's vision, reported in Isaiah chapter 6, of YHWH of hosts on His throne, in His glory in heaven, was Jesus Christ, in John chapter 12:37-41.

John 12:37 -40
[ Original: Greek] | But though he [Jesus Christ] had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him[Jesus Christ]:

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled , which he spake , Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed ? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus, as YHWH of hosts, seen on His throne in heaven, pre-incarnation, as seen by Isaiah:
Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord/YHWH sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up , and his train filled the temple.
[His -Christ's- glory filled the temple in heaven]
Quote:
1 In the year that King Uzzi'ah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory." 4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" 6 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven." 8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."
9 And he said, "Go, and say to this people: 'Hear and hear, but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.' 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." 11 Then I said, "How long, O Lord?" And he said: "Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the land is utterly desolate, 12 and the LORD removes men far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
John tells us plainly that Isaiah saw Jesus Christ as YHWH of hosts, sitting on His throne of glory, in His created temple in the created heaven, in Isaiah 6.

Moses saw His [YHWH'S] One similitude, and spoke to Him [Jesus Christ pre-incarnate] "mouth to mouth";
Quote:
Numbers 12:8 With him [Moses] will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD/YHWH shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Ezekiel saw the Glory of YHWH -the preincarnate Jesus Christ- in chapters 1-10:
Quote:
EZEK 1:1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth `month', in the fifth `day' of the month, as I was among the captives by the river Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God/elohiym.

EZEK 1:2 In the fifth `day' of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,

EZEK 1:3 the word of YHWH came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of Jehovah was there upon him.

EZEK 1:4 And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, a great cloud, with a fire infolding itself, and a brightness round about it, and out of the midst thereof as it were glowing metal, out of the midst of the fire.

EZEK 1:5 And out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of an Adam.

EZEK 1:6 And every one had four faces, and every one of them had four wings.

EZEK 1:7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot; and they sparkled like burnished brass.

EZEK 1:8 And they had the hands of an Adam under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings `thus':

EZEK 1:9 their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

EZEK 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they had the face of an Adam; and they four had the face of a lion on the right side; and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four had also the face of an eagle.

EZEK 1:11 And their faces and their wings were separate above; two `wings' of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

EZEK 1:12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; they turned not when they went.

EZEK 1:13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches: `the fire' went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

EZEK 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

EZEK 1:15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold, one
owphan upon the earth beside the living creatures, for each of the four faces thereof.

EZEK 1:16 The appearance of the
owphan and their work was like unto a beryl: and they four had one likeness; and their appearance and their work was as it were an owphan within a owphan .
EZEK 1:17 When they went, they went in their four directions: they turned not when they went.
EZEK 1:18 As for their rims, they were high and dreadful; and they four had their rims full of eyes round about.
EZEK 1:19 And when the living creatures went, the
owphan went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the owphan were lifted up.
EZEK 1:20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went; thither was the spirit to go: and the [/SIZE]
owphan were lifted up beside them; for the spirit of the living creature was in the owphan
.
EZEK 1:21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the
owphan were lifted up beside them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
EZEK 1:22 And over the head of the living creature there was the likeness of a firmament, like the terrible crystal to look upon, stretched forth over their heads above.
EZEK 1:23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two which covered on this side, and every one had two which covered on that side, their bodies.
EZEK 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings like the noise of great waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a noise of tumult like the noise of a host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
EZEK 1:25 And there was a voice above the firmament that was over their heads: when they stood, they let down their wings.


EZEK 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone; and upon the likeness of the throne was a likeness as the appearance of [an] ADAM upon it above.

EZEK 1:27 And I saw as it were glowing metal, as the appearance of fire within it round about, from the appearance of his loins and upward; and from the appearance of his loins and downward I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness round about him.

EZEK 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of YHWH. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Next post: the stripping "bare naked" of the Glory which Jesus Christ [as YHWH of hosts] voluntarily did, to come incarnate -in flesh of second man creation.
The Glory of the "unseen Father" is that Glory which Jesus Christ stripped Himself "bare naked" of, to come in the likeness of Adam, [who was made in His own image/likeness, which was to come]-but not in the sinful, corrupt flesh of Adam.
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