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He did not give the power of the sword to individuals, but to governments.
He ordained governments.
God ordained "killing" for murder, when he gave Noah his commands after the flood; Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth/pours out Adam's blood, by Adam shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. Psa 75:7 But God [is] the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
God ordains rulers, and vile men get vile rulers set over them: Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Jesus does not give the power of the sword to the Church, BTW, but to governments.
The Nazi's claimed that God told them to go to war, and kill the Jews.
They are a government, does that mean they were in the right?
He did not give the power of the sword to individuals, but to governments.
He ordained governments.
God ordained "killing" for murder, when he gave Noah his commands after the flood; Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth/pours out Adam's blood, by Adam shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. Psa 75:7 But God [is] the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
God ordains rulers, and vile men get vile rulers set over them: Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Jesus does not give the power of the sword to the Church, BTW, but to governments.
It's funny I don't remember the clause after "thou shalt not kill" that said "except if you are in government then go right ahead and slaughter however many you want".
I really dislike this habit of grabbing a whole bunch of quotes out of context to create the illusion that the bible is really saying something that it just isn't. The commandments are there, they are not meant to be disobeyed (if you believe the bible) so if you kill, no matter who you are, you have broken a commandment. Simple as that.
You would think that God would have foreseen this problem (being a god and all) and made it clearer from the start. You would think if he meant the commandment to be conditional he would have added that right there in the text next to it.
Even if the government has a mandate from God to go out killing people that still doesn't give permission to the soldiers, or those who carry out capital punishment. Or are you saying that governments have the power to override God's commandments? That they can give permission to people to kill? By employing a person to kill they have the capacity to say "you are now exempt from God's law". That puts God second to the governments then and at the mercy of their veto.
It's funny I don't remember the clause after "thou shalt not kill" that said "except if you are in government then go right ahead and slaughter however many you want". .
It does not say thou shalt not kill. It says you shall not commit murder in the original language, and that is what it is.
God gives government the power of the sword, and He sets up governments, as my former posts already linked to the verses to show.
It does not say thou shalt not kill. It says you shall not commit murder in the original language, and that is what it is.
God gives government the power of the sword, and He sets up governments, as my former posts already linked to the verses to show.
I wonder if the victims of this mass execution understood the distinction.
It does not say thou shalt not kill. It says you shall not commit murder in the original language, and that is what it is.
God gives government the power of the sword, and He sets up governments, as my former posts already linked to the verses to show.
I understand what you mean. Others here will reject what you say since they are in total denial that God does exist.
It does not say thou shalt not kill. It says you shall not commit murder in the original language, and that is what it is.
God gives government the power of the sword, and He sets up governments, as my former posts already linked to the verses to show.
Odd isn't it that governments which are secular orientated do not seem to war or want to war against other nations?
I suppose next you will provide "proof" that gawd really did speak to St. Shrub regarding Iraq?
It does not say thou shalt not kill. It says you shall not commit murder in the original language, and that is what it is.
God gives government the power of the sword, and He sets up governments, as my former posts already linked to the verses to show.
Are you saying that committing murder is different from killing someone? The only difference is that murder is killing another person with premeditation whereas killing someone could be quite by accident. The commandments were given from god to his people , yes? If that particular commandment did indeed say "you shall not commit murder" how is that any different from thou shalt not kill, it is simply old English saying the exact same thing (ie: you shall not kill, or murder if you like) What is the difference? It still doesn't make the distinction between who can and can't, it says no one can. Well to be exact he said "you" and I take that to mean everyone but him. You have not made a case here at all.
As for your links to other verses, I have already given my opinion on taking verses from different parts of the bible to try and justify something. Such is the nature of the bible that anyone can justify anything by taking verses out of context. Again I will ask, if God wanted to make a distinction why did he not put it right there in the commandment to avoid confusion? Why would he allow such contradictory statements to appear in his book? One minute saying you can't kill and then the next saying some people must be killed. Maybe he should have made a rough draft of the bible before dictating it, just to get the story straight.
Maybe he should have made a rough draft of the bible before dictating it, just to get the story straight.
Gets back to the mystery writer. Moses is given credit for writing five books of the old testament. There was somebody there writing in third person telling what Moses was told by god and all...who was that person behind curtain three?
It does not say thou shalt not kill. It says you shall not commit murder in the original language, and that is what it is.
God gives government the power of the sword, and He sets up governments, as my former posts already linked to the verses to show.
Someone else who doesn't read posts. This was p. 1.
Quote:
"Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (8799) .
Ratsach raw-tsakh' Verb 2208
Definition
to murder, slay, kill
(Qal) to murder, slay
premeditated
accidental
as avenger
slayer (intentional) (participle)
(Niphal) to be slain
(Piel)
to murder, assassinate
murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
(Pual) to be killed (Strong's concordances)
Murder or kill.
refers to various ways (intentions) of doing this
Murder is premeditated or it would be manslaughter.
Kill is either premeditated or accidental or as avenger. Which could cover all acts of war or kinslaying.
And to murder, kill or slay by intention. which covers all kinds of what we would call killing.
It then goes on to refer to something different - murder or assasination.
Clearly, though Ratsach can refer to murder, and indeed, assassination as a subset of killing, it does appear to cover all kinds of killing.
I don't think you can get away by excusing God's ordering of killings by trying to define the commandment not to kill as referring to 'murder', which, I suspect, we could expect you to define as 'Any kind of killing not authorized by God'?"
This translation - shopping is a hoary and not very honest way of theist apologists to wriggle out of Biblical problems. The 'kill really means murder' ploy is repeated by one God-excuser after another and I suspect they haven't looked the meaning up.
Let us have no more of this 'kill means murder' wriggling. Ratsach means Kill. The meaning seems to be applied to humans killed by humans. I don't doubt that this was intended to mean (since the commandments were just another attempt at a moral code by humans) don't kill unless approved by the authority at the time, who of course claimed God's will as a justification for genocide against those whose land they wanted or against anyone not toeing the line in their own community.
Gets back to the mystery writer. Moses is given credit for writing five books of the old testament. There was somebody there writing in third person telling what Moses was told by god and all...who was that person behind curtain three?
He wrote the five books of the old testament? You can't mean people believe that Moses wrote Deuteronomy. I mean I could buy a person writing about himself/herself in the third person(*cough* June *cough*) but Deuteronomy 34 is about his bloody death :
Quote:
5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.
9 Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses.
10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, 11 who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
This is beyond ridiculous."Then I died and many people cried for me and no one else was as good as me because of my awesome superpowers" Yeah, very humble Moses.
Last edited by coosjoaquin; 10-26-2009 at 01:41 AM..
Reason: caps
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Yeah, very humble Moses.
