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Old 12-08-2009, 02:28 PM
 
6,484 posts, read 6,595,735 times
Reputation: 1275

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchristian View Post
I used the term "Bible-emphasizing" Christians because you did, Calvinist. I would think it means Christians who emphasize the Bible as being true and authoritative for their lives. It seems that you mean people who interpret the Bible exactly the same as you do. If that's true, then yes, we do disagree on what it means.

I will happily respond briefly to your questions, noting that this is a far more complex issue than you seem to allow for, and there is no way we can deal with its complexity sufficiently in this format. Having said that, I'm not going to get into a protracted discussion of women in ministry here - its not the point of this thread, and I'm not interested in hijacking it.

There is no one-to-one correlation between the terms "overseer" and "pastor" as you suggest. The term actually seems closer to the role of "elder" - while there is certainly some overlap with the role of modern-day pastors, they are not the same. Regardless, Paul is not remotely interested in titles. He uses them as they are helpful, but his concern is with the function of the role. So my previous comment about the fact that nobody has a problem with females pastoring children still stands. Are we really arguing simply about the title we use? If so, I'm not sure this is a good use of anyone's time.
A pastor is an elder. So while it is not true that all elders are pastors, if you are a pastor, you fill the role of elder.
Quote:
Regarding 1 Timothy 2:13-15, there are a couple issues you have to consider. First, it is far from clear in the Greek whether the word translated "for" is intended to indicate causation (as in, women can't do these things BECAUSE of the creation order) or if it is intended to be illustrative, meaning that Paul is pointing to an example of his point. If the second option - which I think likely - there is good reason to believe that Paul is here talking about household/marriage, NOT the way men and women in general relate to one another. It is also important to keep in mind that the words translated "man" and "woman" here can just as easily refer to "husband" and "wife".
The text clearly states (yes, I can read Greek, too) that an elder should be a "1 woman man". To me, it's clear that an elder should be a "man"...not "man or woman".
Quote:
As far as the possibility of women in other positions at StoneBridge, it is hard to say what will happen in the future. I do not believe the Bible prohibits women from pastoring in other areas. But we have no official church position on the issue - because it is NOT central to salvation - and you would likely find a range of opinion among both our staff and our members. We believe pretty firmly that on issues that are not central to our salvation, good Christian people have freedom to hold different opinions - especially when a biblical argument can be made for those different opinions.
I will agree that this is not an essential doctrine. I will make the observation though, that a relaxed position on female leadership in the church can and usually does precede a relaxed position on other issues related to the faith--such as Biblical inerrancy and homosexual ordination. Not to suggest women pastors CAUSES that...but it does precede it. It can also be a telling indicator of a willingness to adhere to sound doctrine.
Quote:
Calvinist, I notice that you did not address any of the issues that cssweatman raised. In particular, how do you deal with the fact that there are several women who seem to be doing things that , by your interpretation, Paul specifically prohibits (like teaching men about the gospel).
In Bible times, you mean? Name one, please.
Quote:
And how do you deal with the fact that Paul mentions women being silent in both 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 - yet in 1 Corinthians 11:4 speaks of women who prophesy in church - which would certainly involve speaking? Somehow we need to make sense of all these passages.
I've never said women can't speak in church. I do believe that churches need to use women--but a woman should not hold the position of authority and be in a pastoral role.
Quote:
More importantly, though - I will say again that it concerns me that so much in this thread is about attacking other churches. Why not talk instead about why you think your church is a good place to grow? Why are we so interested in tearing one another down? Constructive discussion is always a good thing - but rarely are the things said here constructive. Insinuations, labels and attack don't help anyone - least of all people who come here looking for a church.
It sounds like your church has some issues it needs to work through. What are the things your church is being "attacked" for ? The way I see it, it's that you guys teach a watered-down message and have ignored some Biblical commands.

 
Old 12-09-2009, 09:24 AM
 
8 posts, read 20,716 times
Reputation: 20
Obviously you're welcome to think whatever you want about our church. I'm fairly certain, however, that you have little or no involvement in the StoneBridge community. If that is the case, I'm not sure what makes you think you are qualified to make the kind of accusations you've made about StoneBridge. The insinuations that we do not trust or view the Bible as authoritative or that we support homosexual ordination are unfounded and unhelpful. As is your unsupported claim that we teach a "watered-down message". Its worth noting that I have been very upfront about who I am - its highly problematic to make sweeping judgments about others while hiding behind an anonymous name.

You've ignored a number of fair questions asked of you, while I've tried to respond to each of your questions. You've chosen not to respond to any of the points made by cssweatman, including the fact that he listed 4 or 5 women "in Bible times" that present a problem for your view of women and ministry. Each of them are mentioned in Paul's letters.

Since this is clearly not going to be a helpful or constructive conversation, this will be my last response. I wish you and your church the best - I hope you do ours as well. And again, I extend an invitation to anyone looking for a great church that will help you grow closer to God - give StoneBridge a try.
 
Old 12-09-2009, 11:24 AM
 
6,484 posts, read 6,595,735 times
Reputation: 1275
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchristian View Post
Obviously you're welcome to think whatever you want about our church. I'm fairly certain, however, that you have little or no involvement in the StoneBridge community. If that is the case, I'm not sure what makes you think you are qualified to make the kind of accusations you've made about StoneBridge. The insinuations that we do not trust or view the Bible as authoritative or that we support homosexual ordination are unfounded and unhelpful.
Whoah now...I've never suggested that you guys support homosexual ordination. I made the statement that women pastors has historically been a first step on the road toward it--because it illlustrates a lack of conviction regarding scripture.
Quote:

As is your unsupported claim that we teach a "watered-down message". Its worth noting that I have been very upfront about who I am - its highly problematic to make sweeping judgments about others while hiding behind an anonymous name.
I've listened to quite a few of your senior pastor's messages. I've read some of the criticisms of your church on this board. Honestly, I am basing some of the opinions I form off of what others have said here and on other boards.
Quote:


You've ignored a number of fair questions asked of you, while I've tried to respond to each of your questions. You've chosen not to respond to any of the points made by cssweatman, including the fact that he listed 4 or 5 women "in Bible times" that present a problem for your view of women and ministry. Each of them are mentioned in Paul's letters.
Sorry...I havne't checked this thread since yesterday. I'll go back to address them.
Quote:


Since this is clearly not going to be a helpful or constructive conversation, this will be my last response. I wish you and your church the best - I hope you do ours as well. And again, I extend an invitation to anyone looking for a great church that will help you grow closer to God - give StoneBridge a try.

My intent was never to start an argument with staff from any church lurking around message boards. Get with the program and adhere to Biblical standards and you won't get talked about on internet message boards.
 
Old 12-09-2009, 11:30 AM
 
6,484 posts, read 6,595,735 times
Reputation: 1275
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssweatman View Post
Calvinist,

Many things strike me as rather curious about your comment:

First, you appear to have a highly narrow view of what the term 'pastor' really means. Presumably, it is a view that safeguards it from the liberal category, which is 'stacking the deck' at its best.
The Bible treats a pastor as a "head elder".
Quote:


Second, you appear to have very little understanding of how Paul viewed women in the church and the various roles he relished them having. (Check out Junia, Phoebe, Chloe, and Priscilla--just to name a few [especially Priscilla, who taught Apollos--a man!*gasp*--the correct version of the gospel]).
I've got no problem with the fact that any and all of those women were used by God. None of them served in authoritative pastoral/elder roles though. Priscilla was specifically said to be under the direct supervision/partnership of her husband, Aquilla.
Quote:


Third, you seem to believe (strangely) that a single decision about a single issue (not central to salvation) automatically and categorically makes a church 'liberal', which therefore suggests that you have a highly narrow view of what 'liberal' really means. (Again, 'stacking the deck').
It's an indicator.
Quote:


Fourth, and related to the third, you seem to believe (again, strangely) that if such a 'liberal' decision is made then anything remotely 'conservative' that still exists within the church is necessarily made void. If that is the case, then Stonebridge's ('conservative') teachings on God's grace, his covenant with Abraham/Israel, the deity of Christ, his sacrificial atoning death, the forgiveness of sins, Jesus' resurrection, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, the gospel to the nations, helping the helpless, the consummation of God's eternal kingdom, etc--all of that is now crap because they have women 'pastors', right?
I've listened to quite a few of their pastor's sermons online. There are other issues regarding the content of those sermons that make me consider them to be watered-down or less than conservative.
Quote:


Most importantly of all in this regard: nothing in scripture suggests that the existence of women 'pastors' has a condemning effect; however, a doctrine of 'limited atonement' does.

Except that pastors are specifically defined as being men?
 
Old 12-10-2009, 11:34 AM
 
1 posts, read 2,338 times
Reputation: 10
This is a very interesting exchange. Calvinist - is this you? http://www.irishcalvinist.com/
 
Old 12-10-2009, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Omaha Nebraska and dreamland when I am sleeping
3,098 posts, read 7,519,324 times
Reputation: 541
I have a question


why do churches that have women pastors or embrace women pastors tend to down the line

also tend to endorse gay glergy

promote universalism

and tend be into new-age and occult like stuff



cause I notice the churches with female pastors


Augustana ELCA and First UMC and First Lutheran


as well as First Christian Church on Dodge and Countryside which have female pastors among their leadership

tend to deny John 14:6 (i.e. be unitarian like churches)

and tend to be very leftist.


I could be wrong on this, but why is that here with Omaha churches that have female leaders
 
Old 12-11-2009, 06:16 AM
 
6,484 posts, read 6,595,735 times
Reputation: 1275
Quote:
Originally Posted by SG2KoH View Post
This is a very interesting exchange. Calvinist - is this you? Irish Calvinist-
No. That is not me. The guy that runs that site, last I knew, was an Assistant Pastor at a local church, but I really know very little about him.
 
Old 12-11-2009, 10:47 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,292 posts, read 26,583,597 times
Reputation: 3925
It is very interesting to see people who know nothing about Stonebridge be so critical of it.

I have known their pastor & his wife for many years, and I can assure you that Stonebridge is NOT the bastion of liberalism that some people here seem to think. Also, give me a break. A woman being on staff as their pre-school director is hardly a controversial thing.


Now... For a couple of you that are so aggressively critical of Stonebridge, how 'bout you tell us where you go to church, and we'll go out of our way to criticize it. Fair enough?
 
Old 01-04-2010, 04:03 PM
 
4 posts, read 8,774 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SG2KoH View Post
This is a very interesting exchange. Calvinist - is this you? Irish Calvinist-
No, the person who runs that blog is Pastor Erik Raymond, who is the head preaching Pastor at Omaha Bible Church's South campus.
 
Old 02-04-2010, 12:52 AM
 
3 posts, read 6,447 times
Reputation: 11
The Uncommon Church is a young Church in the city of Omaha that is passionately bringing change to its community and serving the under priviledged. Hundreds of addicts, homeless people and such are being served and ministered to monthly by this group which by the way is NOT affiliated with any so-called "Word of Faith" movement or organizations. The Uncommon Church is a non-denominational, independent Church founded on the principles of God's word to advance the cause of Christ and His Kingdom on Earth.

It is very shameful to see the pressumptive ignorance of some so-called bloggers who because of their narrow minded stereotype or personal agenda lead many astray... I am utterly heart broken that BILLIEFAN2000 who (I am assuming) professes Christ BUT has NEVER visited the Uncommon Church, nor have a clue about the heart of its pastors and leadership will take it upon him or herself to judge and discredit a Church body! Evidently this person has not even read the book "ChurchShift" (I have), otherwise he would not be so ignorant to call it a "prosperity" gospel message.

BILLIEFAN2000 or should I say Joshua... there is an old saying ... "Never judge a book by its cover". Just because a pastor was ordained by Rod Parsley does not mean that he preaches the same message and who made you a judge anyway over the people of God. These are the types of attitude and behaviour that attract God's wrath and we wonder what happened to certain people who claim to serve God! Remember the Bible declares that we should never curse those who God has blessed! Goodluck with your campaign my friend!

Before sounding off on matters you do not understand, spend some time to do some due diligence. In such a way that you would not come across uninformed and a stumbling block in the cause that Jesus died for. See for yourself because pictures are worth a thousand words ... http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=239437057355 (broken link)

For those looking for a Church, Do not be misled by the vain philosophies of men and misinformed assumptions based on a personal grudge or just sheer ignorance. THE UNCOMMON CHURCH COMES VERY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED AND YOU SHOULD CHECK THEM OUT FOR YOURSELF but even more importantly, let the Holy Spirit guide you as to what Church you should be plugged into not some stranger's ideology.

God bless you!

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