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Location: Omaha Nebraska and dreamland when I am sleeping
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Originally Posted by Raphael07
Well, I discovered on the Willow Creek website that my church is a member. I never knew that and never even heard of the WCA before you guys brought it up. My pastors never mention other people in their Sermons, and all of their Sermons are based on biblical passages, concepts, and discplines.
Why all the fuss about Willow Creek? Willow Creek did not happen to a healthy church system, it happened to a largely misguided, and balkanized group of religious clubs. This was a natural progression in my mind. For all the churches that claim to have close adherence to scripture and doctrine I have found this to be largely, talk. Talk that has become cheaper, and cheaper by the year. Most church goers have only a vague idea what doctrine they or their church adheres to, let alone who that church might be associated with. Did we have good numbers? Did we meet our goals? Yes? And look, all done and we kept our hands clean.
There is no more profound verse in my mind that is fitting of religious organizations today than II Timothy 3:5 "...holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away." Who are those who hold this form of godliness? It's not just wishy-washy leaders looking to make a fast buck, this is the people who attend these wishy-washy churches. By failing to recognize and act on their own standards, they have fallen into the path of least resistance. Today that is Willow Creek. I can only imagine what the next phase of this progression will look like. Church members that do not deny the power of God do not need systems or models. They do not fear failure, or tremble at not being able to make a mortgage payment for new buildings. Church members who trust in the power of God have left such concerns behind them, and are on to the work that is set before all of us. This is the church I am looking for, any suggestions?
Denominations & affiliations aside, can anyone recommend a church that takes these two verses as if they are in the Bible; "Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God.", James 4:4, and "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself" James 2:17. Version ASV 1901
Thanks
I'm sure there are plenty that would teach those verses correctly in the context in which they were written. Of course, whether or not that is what you're asking is up to you.
I'm sure there are plenty that would teach those verses correctly in the context in which they were written. Of course, whether or not that is what you're asking is up to you.
To teach that these verses are to be lived, that is. That to not live the meaning here is to not live the Christian life. Yes, I to am sure these are taught in many churches in Omaha, but is that to say they are not avoided, and are referenced and read only? It would seem that if they were taught "correctly" as you say, they would be taught as standards to live by. A standard that is demanded, and not merely suggested. Context? The call for correct contextual reference can serve many of our interests don't you find?
To teach that these verses are to be lived, that is. That to not live the meaning here is to not live the Christian life. Yes, I to am sure these are taught in many churches in Omaha, but is that to say they are not avoided, and are referenced and read only? It would seem that if they were taught "correctly" as you say, they would be taught as standards to live by. A standard that is demanded, and not merely suggested. Context? The call for correct contextual reference can serve many of our interests don't you find?
I'm still not sure I have a clue what you mean by that.
I'm guessing you are suggesting that we need to teach a faith + works salvation message. Is that correct?
I'm still not sure I have a clue what you mean by that.
I'm guessing you are suggesting that we need to teach a faith + works salvation message. Is that correct?
A Christian life that has no "works" is not a Christian life. A Christian in perpetual infatuation with the things of the world, is not actually a Christian. In a similar way, a professing Christian who hates an individual, or group of individuals is not an actual Christian. In order to argue otherwise not only must you deny scripture, but you must deny God's transformative power.
You could look at it this way. If an incredible event were to take place in the U.S. today that rivaled 9/11 many times over, and there was a resulting wave of love shown one to another from professing Christians, if church members began opening up their doors to those in need rather than throwing a few $'s at them. If they began to shed all of the accoutrement's of vanity and pride, and instead gave until there was little left to give, then you may have something that draws close to the Church according to biblical teaching, in my view.
The fattened, and cowardly example we have today is more interested in warping the meaning of Scripture than in living it. It is more interested in perpetuity than a living, and bold example of faith in action. They argue "salvation by grace!!", and end the discussion there in a most convenient way. The doctrinal debates have also served to take the focus of what it is to be a Christian from the obvious, to a level of not seeing a forest for all the trees. None of this can be said for the remnant, but I think it safe to say the remnant is in a significant minority today, as it always has been. I hope that answers your question.
A Christian life that has no "works" is not a Christian life.
As a general statement, yes. If you claim to be a Christian, your life should back it up.
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A Christian in perpetual infatuation with the things of the world, is not actually a Christian. In a similar way, a professing Christian who hates an individual, or group of individuals is not an actual Christian.
As a general statement, yes. You are correct.
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In order to argue otherwise not only must you deny scripture, but you must deny God's transformative power.
You could look at it this way. If an incredible event were to take place in the U.S. today that rivaled 9/11 many times over, and there was a resulting wave of love shown one to another from professing Christians, if church members began opening up their doors to those in need rather than throwing a few $'s at them. If they began to shed all of the accoutrement's of vanity and pride, and instead gave until there was little left to give, then you may have something that draws close to the Church according to biblical teaching, in my view.
No argument yet. We do need to be living as the Bible commands us to.
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The fattened, and cowardly example we have today is more interested in warping the meaning of Scripture than in living it. It is more interested in perpetuity than a living, and bold example of faith in action. They argue "salvation by grace!!", and end the discussion there in a most convenient way.
I'm still with you.
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The doctrinal debates have also served to take the focus of what it is to be a Christian from the obvious, to a level of not seeing a forest for all the trees. None of this can be said for the remnant, but I think it safe to say the remnant is in a significant minority today, as it always has been. I hope that answers your question.
I'll be preaching a sermon later this weekend, as a matter of fact, that I've called "Don't miss the forest for the trees". I take a look at Colossians 2. Paul addresses what you're saying. Yes--we need to have works to show for our faith...but don't miss Jesus because you're so concerned about good works like circumcision, new moon festivals, etc. Those things are only a shadow of things to come. Thanks to Christ we don't have to "do do do" all the time...because he already did it. And he nailed our sins to the cross.
Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us we are saved by grace...verse 10 says we are created to do God's work. But we're saved by grace first...then works come as a result.
Works seem to have been packaged rather nicely in our modern world.
If your child falls and gets a good crack on the head do you then feel you "have to" attend the needs of that child?
The modern Christian knows of a thousand of these "cracks", and falls happening daily, in our locale, within reach of a quick response, and we then consider if we "have to" respond. This consideration shows no love. This consideration reveals the myopic nature of our understanding of love, works, and ultimately the power of God. If we sat and considered what our obligation is to our child who has fallen and is hurting, then the very nature of our parenthood could come into question. It would reveal that our relationship is a cold one, and that there is no significant bond between ourselves and the child. It would reveal that we have not been transformed through the nature of of this relationship.
Any work that you find you "have to" do is no evidence of faith. When we react viscerally to needs around us, in a way that is almost involuntary then we show evidence of faith. We show signs that our lives have been transformed by God's love, and that we now are an extension of that love. Not reasoning, calculating creatures issuing meager allotments of concern, and empathy. The visceral nature of our love is evidence that we have yielded entirely to God, and in my view is what conversion is about. A true Christian is a person who through yielding, has become much less of themselves, is not really their old self at all, and is now reacting on the part of God. And that is why we give thanks. From ourselves can no good thing come, as you know.
It was Jesus who made this all very clear in answering what the most important commandment is. First we yield all to God by acknowledging our total submission through love, and then we act as the God of love would act. All doctrine, all teaching, all we do as Christians come from this foundation. Here we can also find why the world will find the Christian life to be utterly appalling. We as Christians give up the very thing non-Christians cherish most, their worldly identity. Perhaps I digress. Christ said that the kingdom is in each of us, the elect. It would seem that the modern church has been allowed to redefine this Kingdom. It is now one composed of words, more than of actions. One that really requires no conversion at all.
Thanks
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