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According to Wiki this is a version that has been discussed by scholars and should be, despite being presented in colloquial english, accurate as regards the original.
However, it is alarming that it, of all the versions, it seems to rewrite the reference to the outer gate facing east to change it to the east gate of the outer wall, which may fit Christian prophecy but does not look like it fits the Bible text.
The Temple had a door, (NOT A GATE). Most translations state (outer Gate), and the (outer Gate,) would naturally be connected to the (outer wall). And I seriously doubt, that the translators made such a change to fit the prophecy. Few even know about the prophecy, and fewer would even consider it. In the past when I went to church, I believe in my 30 some years of attendance, one pastor spoke of it. Most Christian churches today, don't get into that kind of detail.
The Gate Ezekiel saw did not have to exist in His time. He only saw this Gate in a vision. And that Gate did not have to be closed in Ezekiels time either. And Scripture tells us, it was located by the outer wall of the Temple area. I might added here, who actually built the Gate is of little importance, because the Gate in question is not determined by who made it. The prophecy tells us, the Gate will remain shut, (BECAUSE THE GOD OF ISRAEL ENTERED HERE). So your question should be. Who was considered to be the historical God of Israel? And at what point in history did He enter such a Gate?
I agree this is a vision, but it is so exact that it is hard to believe that Ezekiel was not describing a temple that he had actually seen or had heard about in detail. Unless there is some excavation work done on the 1st Temple floor - plan we can never know whether Ezekiel was imagining it as grander than it had been.
I'm also inclined to agree that it is of little importance to the prophecy who actually built the gate. If it had been demolished by the saracens and a bomb-proof steel gate put up by the Israeli army in 2,000 one could still relate it to the prophecy, since that outer east gate buried, demolished or blocked had each been open to the public and the prophecy must relate to the later blocking of the gate.
However, the real question still is, does the closed gate relate to any of these or to the outer of the two temple gates? That is what is arguable. If the latter, then Ezekiel's vision is about God entering the rebuilt Temple through the east temple gate. Ritually that was shut and historically matches Ezekiels' description, though I must say that he also seems to refer to the east gate between the inner (priestly) and outer (public) courts being closed at certain times.
46. The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened. 2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
It goes on to talk of the 'prince' using this gate so the common people had to use the north and south gates.This is hardly prophecy but described the daily ritual procedures of the Temple envisaged by Ezekiel and apparently followed by the temple staff in Herod's day, and Caiaphas'.
Quote:
Also, the prophecy clearly tells us, that the Prince to come would enter by (THE PORCH OF THAT GATE). Another words, it's obvious, we are speaking about two Gates here. And in order for the second Gate to be considered the Porch Gate, it would have to remain physically attached to the first Gate. And for this prophecy to be fulfilled, these two Gates, would have to remain this way until the end of time
Which clearly they haven't being destroyed. But then, I don't believe in prophecy.
To take your post above:
Quote:
The Temple had a door, (NOT A GATE). Most translations state (outer Gate), and the (outer Gate,) would naturally be connected to the (outer wall). And I seriously doubt, that the translators made such a change to fit the prophecy. Few even know about the prophecy, and fewer would even consider it. In the past when I went to church, I believe in my 30 some years of attendance, one pastor spoke of it. Most Christian churches today, don't get into that kind of detail.
In googling, I came across this east gate prophecy pasted from prophecy site to prophecy site. I think it only too likely, when other Bible translations have it as 'the outer sanctuary gate that turns to the east', that to change it to 'the east gate of the outer wall', with a panel of supposed experts vetting it, means that either a bad slip has occurred or this panel had a vested interest in tweaking this passage to fit the prophecy. Otherwise I can't explain it. It isn't correct, I'm sure.
But, yes, we are talking about two gates here and you saw that the 1st temple had an inner and outer Sanctuary gate and the outer was called (on the plan) 'porch gate' because it was the outer chamber of the temple:
"at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar.." I gather this was the same in the 2nd temple.
I agree that 'sh'ar' is generally applied to city wall gates, mainly because there are more of them than temple gates. However, gates (Sh'ar) can also have doors (Pethach) and porches too, going by Ezekiel. Door (hanging closure - Pethach) gate (any entrance) 'Sh'ar' (Strong's concordances)
but
Ezek. 8 . 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east
and Eze 8:14
Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
It appears that a 'gate' (Sh'ar) an entrance, can also have a 'door' (Pethach)
Ez 10. my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
Not from behind them in the temple as they stood in the east city wall gate.
11:1
Moreover the spirit lifted me up, and brought me unto the east gate of the LORD'S house, which looketh eastward: and behold at the door of the gate five and twenty men; among whom I saw Jaazaniah the son of Azur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah
and, of course, here.
46:3
Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
Since I have had no feedback and have got no further, I'll have to rest my case that, although Ezekiel is not as clear about this as I'd like, the association of this closed gate with the descriptions of holy sacrifices and the reference "at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar.." makes me think that the closed gate hasn't got to be an outer enclosure wall gate. And since that outer gate historically, wasn't closed to the public until the Ummayads bricked it up, it has to be a prophecy of the future based on the fact that there is a present east gate that is bricked up, linked metaphorically with a reference to a gate shut for evidently ritual reasons, whereas the Ummayads bricked upthe Golden gate for security reasons, I'd suppose.
There is no reason, I suggest, to relate this prophecy to what is in Ezekiel and some internal evidence, as explained, that it doesn't and, historically and archaeologically, the present gates, remains of gates or buried gates serve only to mark the 'east gate' site.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-23-2009 at 07:40 AM..
Except that the prophecy about Nebby destroying Tyre is a blatent case of lying for Jesus. Your website claims 'fulfilled' prophecy by saying that Nebby destroyed the city of Tyre. That is a downright lie. Nebby destroyed the mainland residential suburb of Tyre. The city of Tyre proper was on the island not on the mainland. Nebby laid siege to the island city for 13 years and failed to take it. So to claim that Nebby destroyed the city of Tyre is a lie. Your 'lying for Jesus' site then goes on to claim that the prophecy was fulfilled when Alexander destroyed Tyre 250 later, conveniently forgetting that the prophecy said that it would be Nebby NOT Alexander.
If you want more evidence for the faliure of the prophecy that said Nebby would take the city of Tyre, you can look in your own Bible and see that later on, Zeke promised to give Nebby Egypt....as compensation for 'getting nothing from Tyre'. Predictably, that prophecy failed even more disaterously than the Tyre one did.
That Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, would conquer Tyre (verses 7-11).
That the city would be made desolate (verse 2).
That it would be thrown into the sea (verse 12).
That it would become a place to spread nets upon (verse 14).
That its maritime supremacy would cease forever (verse 17).
The Tyre prophecy is not bad up to a point (perhaps a point that provides as date of composition) but it certainly wasn't a good prophecy in that it was never fulfilled. Not to completion.
Now I had my own argument on this but it's gone AWOL. So, sorry, I'll have to paste a pretty sound refutation found at:
"This prophecy is false for many reasons.
The primary reason is that Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre. It exists to this day in modern Lebanon. It has been continuously occupied by people. The claims that it will be “a bare rock†and will “never be rebuilt†is false. Tyre was not brought to a “horrible end.†The claim “You will be sought, but you will never again be found†is nonsense since any person reading this blog could go there today!
Nebuchadnezzar did attack Tyre from 585-573 B.C. but was unable to take the city. Tyre was conquered in 332 B.C. by Alexander but at no time was the city destroyed. It exists to this day. According to the false prophecy found in Ezekiel, Nebuchadnezzar was supposed to completely destroy Tyre, it was never to be rebuilt again, but to remain an eternal ruin, and the King was supposed to get much wealth and loot from the city, making it worth his while.
Ezekiel admits he was wrong 3 chapters later (note that Ezekiel 26 starts out “in the 11th year, and Ezekiel 29 starts out “in the 27th yearâ€)
Ezekiel 29:17 In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month on the first day, the word of the LORD came to me: 18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon drove his army in a hard campaign against Tyre; every head was rubbed bare and every shoulder made raw. Yet he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against Tyre. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will carry off its wealth. He will loot and plunder the land as pay for his army. 20 I have given him Egypt as a reward for his efforts because he and his army did it for me, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Wait a minute! Didn’t Ezekiel say in 26:12 “They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandiseâ€? Now all of a sudden “he and his army got no reward.â€
Then he makes a prophecy that he Nebuchadnezzar will be given Egypt as a reward. Guess what? That was another false prophecy! More details on that false prophecy at another time."
I can add to this that Alexander took Tyre and demolished the mainland bit to make a causeway over to the Island part of Tyre. This is what has been built up by the causeway silting up. It is an inhabited area and a port (Sur) and not just aplace to spread nets and the argument that it is isn't the 'real' Tyre is just false.
In fact even after Alexander's trashing of the place, it recovered and remained an important trading city in Roman, Christian and Muslim times
up to the present.
What Are The Best Examples Of Prophecies From The Bible That Have Come True?
Actually there are none worth speaking of. The buybull is a collection of fables and myths that was/is a poor attempt to shore up belief in a mythological beastie. If anything even seems to be correct it would fall under the heading of "even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then". It is a classic case of trying to sell cow dung as a Porterhouse Steak.
Just look at the blatant lies on Nolands 'lying for Jesus' site.
Quote:
Ezekiel gave the prophecy in about BC 596 when Tyre was a major trading centre. It was situated on the Mediterranean coast in modern day Lebanon and for centuries the ships of Tyre ruled the waves. But having angered Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Babylonians, they suffered a siege that eventually caused the city walls of Tyre to fall.
...but not by Nebuchadnezzar as the the prophecy said.
Quote:
The people of Tyre, seeing their city about to fall, took all their possessions and fled to an island a half mile from shore.
LIE! The city of Tyre proper was never ever on the mainland. It was always on the island. The mainland part of Tyre was nothing more than an undefended residential area.
Quote:
From her new water-enclosed fortress the new city of Tyre continued to defy her enemies.
Lie! There was no 'new' city of Tyre. It was the same city as it had always been.
Quote:
Although Nebuchadnezzar fulfilled a good part of the prophecy there were certain details that were not yet fulfilled. Someone living in those times might even have said "the prophecy wasn't fulfilled exactly, God's word is not infallible!" For instance, Ezekiel said:
"They will plunder your riches and loot your merchandise. They will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses. Your stones and timber and soil they will cast into the midst of the waters. I will make you a bare rock. You shall be a place for the spreading of nets. You shall never be rebuilt ... when I bring up the deep over you, and the great waters cover you." (verses 12, 14, 19).
Nebuchadnezzar accomplished none of this, though he destroyed the original city.
LIE! There was only ever one city.....on the island.
Quote:
The prophecy spoke of an unnamed power as "they shall do it."
LIE! The prophecy claims that it shall be Nebby...nobody else is mentioned.
Quote:
For almost 250 years Tyre continued as a city and rose to new power. It must have seemed as though Ezekiel's prophecy had failed. But as last Tyre opposed Alexander of Greece. Alexander was determined that he would bring Tyre under his control. To do so he had to get at the island fortress, and that meant that he had to build a ramp connecting the mainland with the island across which his soldiers could march.
'
The stones, the walls, the pleasant houses of the ruins of the mainland city (the one Ezekiel said would be utterly destroyed and never rebuilt) provided him with a means to do this. He ordered that they be thrown "into the sea" (as Ezekiel had predicted) for this purpose. A clean sweep was made of the site, and not a remnant of the city remained.
Pity the prophecy hadn't said Alexander rather than Nebby.
Quote:
Today, the blue waters of the Mediterranean wash over the ruins of Tyre,...
.LIE! The city is alive and thriving, in exactly the same place as it has always been.
Quote:
The mighty city of ancient Tyre was completely erased.
LIE! It's still there. The Bible even says that Jesus and Paul went there in the 1st century CE. A little difficult to do if it wasn't there eh?
Nolan, your site is a complete travesty of lies and misinformation.
Indeed, Bible prophecy, upon examination, looks everything from arguable to nonsensical. Sorry if this is turning from 'Good prophecies' to 'good prophecies disputed if not refuted', but it has to be said.
Tyre won't do, Babylon won't do. Moab and Edom won't do.
Daniel's case must be considered disproven. Prophecies of Jesus in Isaiah and Psalms turn out to look taken from context.
Gospel prophecies are also found to be questionable from doubtfully applicable like Matthew's 'virgin' prophecy to the fudging up of the nativity tales to fit the supposed prophecy. Caiaphas of all people supposedly inspired by God to prophecy and the pretty dreadful mistranslating of OT quotes to try and fit Judas' death into prophecy.
The best as I said is the temple destruction prophecy. The only problem (for me) that is that it means that the synoptics had to be working from a common text which itself would have to post -date the jewish war of 60-80.
I think Ezekiel's east gate prophecy could go into the V. arguable category since there are two big objections to it. Three if we count that it hasn't actually happened yet.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-23-2009 at 08:58 AM..
I agree this is a vision, but it is so exact that it is hard to believe that Ezekiel was not describing a temple that he had actually seen or had heard about in detail. Unless there is some excavation work done on the 1st Temple floor - plan we can never know whether Ezekiel was imagining it as grander than it had been.
I'm also inclined to agree that it is of little importance to the prophecy who actually built the gate. If it had been demolished by the saracens and a bomb-proof steel gate put up by the Israeli army in 2,000 one could still relate it to the prophecy, since that outer east gate buried, demolished or blocked had each been open to the public and the prophecy must relate to the later blocking of the gate.
However, the real question still is, does the closed gate relate to any of these or to the outer of the two temple gates? That is what is arguable. If the latter, then Ezekiel's vision is about God entering the rebuilt Temple through the east temple gate. Ritually that was shut and historically matches Ezekiels' description, though I must say that he also seems to refer to the east gate between the inner (priestly) and outer (public) courts being closed at certain times.
46. The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened. 2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
It goes on to talk of the 'prince' using this gate so the common people had to use the north and south gates.This is hardly prophecy but described the daily ritual procedures of the Temple envisaged by Ezekiel and apparently followed by the temple staff in Herod's day, and Caiaphas'.
Which clearly they haven't being destroyed. But then, I don't believe in prophecy.
To take your post above:
In googling, I came across this east gate prophecy pasted from prophecy site to prophecy site. I think it only too likely, when other Bible translations have it as 'the outer sanctuary gate that turns to the east', that to change it to 'the east gate of the outer wall', with a panel of supposed experts vetting it, means that either a bad slip has occurred or this panel had a vested interest in tweaking this passage to fit the prophecy. Otherwise I can't explain it. It isn't correct, I'm sure.
But, yes, we are talking about two gates here and you saw that the 1st temple had an inner and outer Sanctuary gate and the outer was called (on the plan) 'porch gate' because it was the outer chamber of the temple:
"at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar.." I gather this was the same in the 2nd temple.
I agree that 'sh'ar' is generally applied to city wall gates, mainly because there are more of them than temple gates. However, gates (Sh'ar) can also have doors (Pethach) and porches too, going by Ezekiel. Door (hanging closure - Pethach) gate (any entrance) 'Sh'ar' (Strong's concordances)
but
Ezek. 8 . 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east
and Eze 8:14
Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
It appears that a 'gate' (Sh'ar) an entrance, can also have a 'door' (Pethach)
Ez 10. my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
Not from behind them in the temple as they stood in the east city wall gate.
11:1
Moreover the spirit lifted me up, and brought me unto the east gate of the LORD'S house, which looketh eastward: and behold at the door of the gate five and twenty men; among whom I saw Jaazaniah the son of Azur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah
and, of course, here.
46:3
Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
Since I have had no feedback and have got no further, I'll have to rest my case that, although Ezekiel is not as clear about this as I'd like, the association of this closed gate with the descriptions of holy sacrifices and the reference "at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar.." makes me think that the closed gate hasn't got to be an outer enclosure wall gate. And since that outer gate historically, wasn't closed to the public until the Ummayads bricked it up, it has to be a prophecy of the future based on the fact that there is a present east gate that is bricked up, linked metaphorically with a reference to a gate shut for evidently ritual reasons, whereas the Ummayads bricked upthe Golden gate for security reasons, I'd suppose.
There is no reason, I suggest, to relate this prophecy to what is in Ezekiel and some internal evidence, as explained, that it doesn't and, historically and archaeologically, the present gates, remains of gates or buried gates serve only to mark the 'east gate' site.
The East Gate was bricked up, because about 1450 years ago the Jews of that time told Sultan Suleiman, that their coming Messiah would enter the rebuilt East Gate, when he makes his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. The Sultan, fearing the prophecy had the Gate bricked up. And in doing so, he unwittingly fulfilled Ezekiels prophecy. It's obvious, not only do Christian relate this prophecy to Ezekiel, so did the Jewish people from the past. Without question, this prophecy is valid, and only the foolish will ignore it's reality today. And this prophecy does not stand alone, because the Bible tells us, not only would the Gate remain sealed. The Jewish people from all over the earth would return to the land of Israel and Jerusalem in the last days. And before the return of Christ, the Jewish people would once again rebuild their Temple on Mt. Moriah. And animal sacrifice would begin again.
Except that the prophecy about Nebby destroying Tyre is a blatent case of lying for Jesus. Your website claims 'fulfilled' prophecy by saying that Nebby destroyed the city of Tyre. That is a downright lie. Nebby destroyed the mainland residential suburb of Tyre. The city of Tyre proper was on the island not on the mainland. Nebby laid siege to the island city for 13 years and failed to take it. So to claim that Nebby destroyed the city of Tyre is a lie. Your 'lying for Jesus' site then goes on to claim that the prophecy was fulfilled when Alexander destroyed Tyre 250 later, conveniently forgetting that the prophecy said that it would be Nebby NOT Alexander.
If you want more evidence for the faliure of the prophecy that said Nebby would take the city of Tyre, you can look in your own Bible and see that later on, Zeke promised to give Nebby Egypt....as compensation for 'getting nothing from Tyre'. Predictably, that prophecy failed even more disaterously than the Tyre one did.
The Bible clearly tells us Tyre would be destroyed by (many nations), and not just one king. It was not the prophecy that failed. What failed, was you not fully reading the details of the prophecy.
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