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You made a statement you can't back up. End of story.
You said, Really? Please provide a scriptural reference. This was in response to my statement, not just the rapist but their victims will also writhe forever in God's hell.
I'm not sure what you are asking me for. Does not Evangelical Christianity teach that all are sinners? Does not Evangelical Christianity teach that the penalty for sin is death (hell)? Do you NOT believe this? I know that there are Christians who don't accept the doctrine of eternal punishment; are you one of them?
Seems to me like you are trying to obsfucate. Either that or you just don't know what the hell you're talking about.
You said, Really? Please provide a scriptural reference. This was in response to my statement, not just the rapist but their victims will also writhe forever in God's hell.
I'm not sure what you are asking me for. Does not Evangelical Christianity teach that all are sinners? Does not Evangelical Christianity teach that the penalty for sin is death (hell)? Do you NOT believe this? I know that there are Christians who don't accept the doctrine of eternal punishment; are you one of them?
Seems to me like you are trying to obsfucate. Either that or you just don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Perhaps, I misunderstood your intent. It appeared to me you were implying Christians don't have compassion on victims of crime. I'm really not sure what you meant.
In a way, but I'm hesitant because I think I'd put it somewhat differently than that. I don't think it's merely a matter of behaving in a socially appropriate way. In fact in some cases socially inappropriate behavior might be the more virtuous behavior. Also I think your intent matters a good deal as well. If you're just being decent and respectable for image sake you might have to do a good deal of Purgatory or maybe even you can end up in Hell.
As it is understood the practice of any non-Catholic religion, or non-religious philosophy, in itself can not get anyone to Heaven. These other religions or non-religions are insufficient, but not totally false, in themselves. However the person, as I understand it, may get to Heaven regardless by following reason and natural law or virtue as they understand them. They're not punished for simple ignorance. (Although possibly they'd need extra time in Purgatory for reflection and education)
The case of apostates I'm not sure on. In principle it would seem that those who leave Christianity or turn against it would go to Hell. However considerations of justice and reason do matter in these things so it might depend on the nature of their apostasy or their nature or their competence or something else.
Anyway as for Hell itself for awhile now I've tended to prefer the idea it is an "outer darkness of wailing and gnashing of teeth" i.e. it's an area where you are separated from God's light and the torment is pretty much self-inflicted. It's largely a matter of the person's resentful and hateful nature making them wail and suffer. For them to be capable of Heaven God would have to basically destroy their nature and start over so it's better for everyone just to leave them in Hell. However on re-reading the Bible and various traditional Catholic sources this seems to not be that supportable. The phrase "outer darkness of wailing" is Biblical, but verses depicting eternal burning are also pretty common. So I'm not sure even if it is what I still tend to lean toward.
Note: I know some here feel if you explain your beliefs you're somehow proselytizing at them. However I am not intending to do that. I'm simply explaining my understanding of my own beliefs. Whether one accepts or rejects Catholicism or Pre-Reformation Christianity is up to them. I specify because I'm really not competent or all that interested in speaking for Reformation or Restorationist Christianity ie Protestantism and things like Mormonism.
I definitely get 'honest' vibes from you. You don't trick and you think. I don't mind how much a peson disagrees with my views so long as they discuss reasonably and honestly. You do.
I follow your argument above, but the point is not so much about what degree of culpability might keep one out of hell or just reduce the number of years in Purgatory, but the idea that works, not faith is the key thing.
The famous or notorious 'no-one comes to the father but by me' quote is the basis for the idea that people who don't have faith in Jesus - as - Christ cannot get into heaven. Purgatory here is only for sinning believers but non- believers can't even get into purgatory.
Your line suggests to me that being Christian isn't the bottom line, it's being a good person. That is an understandably fair viewpoint but it does remove a lot of the stick from the stick and carrot.
Perhaps, I misunderstood your intent. It appeared to me you were implying Christians don't have compassion on victims of crime. I'm really not sure what you meant.
Yes, the Bible teaches all have sinned.
I think Nightflight is simply pointing out that a non-Christian rapist/murderer and the non-Christian victim of that rape/murder would both get the same punishment (under standard Christian doctrine).
Or a "choose no faith" experiment? Honestly....I think is
d kill myself if I honestly believed there was no God. How hopeless.
That's awful. I believe there's no God, and I don't want to kill myself. I want to enjoy this world since I'm only going to get to be a part of it for one very short amount of time. I want to see and experience it all and live it to the fullest, and see that I do the best I can to make an impact, however big or small, so that maybe the people that come after me have as wonderful an experience on this earth as I did before I had to call it good and check out.
To live this life.. gaah.. that's a one time chance. Don't miss out on it.
Christians, imagine that someone you care about has been snatched up and taken away by some bad people. Imagine further that you had certain knowledge that these loved ones were being horribly tortured everyday.
Could you live with that? I mean, could you function? Could you work, rest, eat, do all the things you normally could do? Me, I would find it hard not to go insane.
I would worry about them but if it's something I couldn't control and I can do nothing, I would have to let the worry go in order to function in my daily life. I am in no way implying I could just forget about them. I'm simply stating that what is out of my control, I have to let go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflight
Now imagine that instead of the scenario above someone you loved died "unsaved" and went to hell. Could you live with that? Could you work, rest, eat do all the things you normally could do?
It's not our place to determine who is or isn't saved. Believing in Jesus' death or Jesus as a man is not being saved nor does His blood wash anything away.
We are responsible for our own soul condition and if someone dies unsaved, they will still have a chance to turn to God in the spirit world. This life is only the beginning. Once we leave here, we will finish in the spirit world. It matters not what our lives are like here, even if you're a vile, murderous sinner. You will pay the consequences here or there. God will forgive in heaven as well as on earth.
After all souls have found either the natural love or Divine Love path, hell (darkness) will be closed. No one will spend eternity there. Those who choose to not repent, will be annihilated and cease to exist. Very simple and we can't blame God or anyone for our own actions.
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