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I have been engaged in PM conversation that I was confused about and silently participated in to see where it was going. I am posting the exchange with names deleted. I will highlite my side of the conversation in bold.
Just letting you know, that it is the very support of outdated and twisted morals like the labeling of homosexual behavior as 'sinful', that will bring Christianity crashing down.
It is the older generations, holding onto such beliefs, that are driving youth away from religion. Self-destruction.
A homosexual does not choose his or her sexual orientation. What a gay guy CAN choose, is whether or not to live a life of lying, deceit, and hiding, or a life of HONESTY.
True morals, morals much more innate and important than the labeling of a sexual orientation as a sin, the constant struggle between truth and lie, are being trampled by the misguided religious right.
I'm Roman Catholic. I'm also gay. I could lie to everyone in my life, and marry a woman I don't love... but I know that God will smile at me if I live true to how He has made me.
I respect your opinion. I do not agree.
You see, the problem is, my opinions do not infringe upon the way you live your life, nor would I want them to.
It is not a matter of respect or disrespect of an opinion. It is a matter of forcing others to live by your opinions instead of their own, and the negative consequences that result.
Why do you not post your opinions in the open forum? Why do you look specifically to me?
Your children- you have some, right? I know that you must love them, very much. If you instill a belief in them that a homosexual lifestyle is one of sin, I hope with all my heart that not a one of them is homosexual. To have your very nature contradict the teachings of your own parent, to feel that you are an abomination in God's eyes, to live the life of someone you are not, to live a lie... it would truly be a horrible existence.
People can (and do!) argue all day about right and wrong. It's irrelevant, though. Your children should not have to suffer for such a pointless reason.
Homosexuals that dip into self-hatred, and try to make themselves 'right', inevitably fall into madness and despair. It is very unfortunate. If you do love your children, please don't teach them that homosexuality is a sin. Teach them that theft, that murder, infidelity are sins, but not this.
It is possible for you to pass down your beliefs to them, without psychologically ripping them to shreds. Please consider it.
At what point does someone have the right to come into my space and tell me how to raise my children and try to burden me with guilt because they do not agree with the principles of Christianity? As a Christian I have never told anyone that they must obide by Christian principles. I have never condemned another for being a non-believer. I have offered love acceptance and the Word where it was welcomed, and space where the Word was not welcomed.
I say to those of you who are non-believers or disobedient believers and choose to tell another that they should act a certain way, respect is a two way street. To quote my favorite musician, "you cant sow a stitch with one hand while your taking it apart." You accuse me and Christians of forcing their opinions on other people and then you passively (through guilt and appeal to emotion) try to force your views upon me and tell me how to raise my children and what they should be taught to believe is sin. Shame on you, and shame on the Christian who does the same. Our laws are not for the non-believer; we must be cautious in how we spread the word for not every heart is ready or able to receive it. To the non-believers, try to force your believes upon us and we will defend vigorously. Our faith is strong and we will not be swayed or tormented. To the disobidient believer, repent and obey; pick one side of the fence or the other but do not straddle the line. These are my thoughts on the issue of forcing values and morals on others. What are yours?
This is something I am struggling with as a Christian especially since beginning to engage in dialog with people on this forum. As Christians, we are exhorted to speak the truth in love. Maybe I'm deluded, but I think I have a fairly even-handed, gracious way of expressing myself (even if I do say so myself! ) But it seems like anytime I have expressed an opinion, however lovingly, it is not received in the spirit I meant it, at least when it expresses any conviction that is opposed by the listener. So...is it wisdom to just "shut-up?" Am I doing more damage than good in those instances? I think I may be.
These are some of the things I'm thinking about here...any thoughts from you
other Christians?
You see, the problem is, my opinions do not infringe upon the way you live your life, nor would I want them to.
It is not a matter of respect or disrespect of an opinion. It is a matter of forcing others to live by your opinions instead of their own, and the negative consequences that result.
First of all opinions are just that, opinions. They do not infringe on the way anyone else lives their life. Last time I checked it was a freedom for everyone to enjoy their own opinions. I see many Christians here with the opinions that homosexuality is a sin and I share that opinion. I do not however see anyone "forcing" their opinions on others who don't share them.
I posted this question in another thread but I'm gonna say it again cause I'd like to get some thoughts on it:
Why is it that when someone says homosexuality is a sin and they do not support gay marriage they are acccused of being intolerant and narrow minded? Now before someone says I just contradicted myself let me clarify that there are many laws that people don't support but that doesn't mean they would or want to deny people that right. If the world wants to legalize gay marriage, go ahead. If the world wants to give gays equal rights, go ahead. Do I support it, no way. Would I deny anyone that right, no way.
I guess my question is would you people that are so pro-gay (for lack of a better word) have Bible believing Christians deny that they are Bible-believing Christians? Bible believing Christians in general believe that homosexuality is a sin. They can no more deny that anymore than you people can deny that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. And why does a declaration of that belief cause you to jump to the conclusion that they are intolerant?
I am new to this forum, so I don't know you or whether you fall into this category or not. But in my experience, many times those of us in a more liberal faith feel that conservative Christians are trying to force their values and morals on others through the political system (ie bans on abortion or same-sex marriage, etc). By doing this, they really would force the rest to live within those moral values if they are to live within the law, whereas the other side may be making a recommendation to you, but that suggestion is not binding.
I pretty much agree with you when you say
Quote:
I have offered love acceptance and the Word where it was welcomed, and space where the Word was not welcomed.
However, if I think of the missionaries that have knocked on my door, I think that conservative Christians tend to make these suggestions to strangers more than liberals.
This is something I am struggling with as a Christian especially since beginning to engage in dialog with people on this forum. As Christians, we are exhorted to speak the truth in love. Maybe I'm deluded, but I think I have a fairly even-handed, gracious way of expressing myself (even if I do say so myself! ) But it seems like anytime I have expressed an opinion, however lovingly, it is not received in the spirit I meant it, at least when it expresses any conviction that is opposed by the listener. So...it is wisdom to just "shut-up?" Am I doing more damage than good in those instances?
These are some of the things I'm thinking about here...any thoughts from you
other Christians?
Kaykay, your posts have always been in a most loving and respectful manner and I don't believe in any way you should just "shut up". Christians who have a belief against homosexuality need to share it. I don't hear these loud mouth liberals and pro gay marriage people being quiet about it. We have every bit as much right to share our opinion as they do. The key is to do it in a loving, respectful, tolerant manner which I belive many people including yourself do. If they have a problem with it then its their problem not yours because you did everything in your power not to offend.
While I say that the knife cuts both ways, I say that the wordly view has become one of (for the most part) everything is good, everything is ok. As long as it doesnt hurt anyone else, do whatever makes you feel good. If you do not agree with this viewpoint then you are simply intolerant. I wonder if the hipocracy in that mindset is evident to the person who owns it.
there are non believers who practice tolerance, usually because they at least appear not to subscribe to the above mentality or at least subscribe whole heartedly.
Kaykay, your posts have always been in a most loving and respectful manner and I don't believe in any way you should just "shut up". Christians who have a belief against homosexuality need to share it. I don't hear these loud mouth liberals and pro gay marriage people being quiet about it. We have every bit as much right to share our opinion as they do. The key is to do it in a loving, respectful, tolerant manner which I belive many people including yourself do. If they have a problem with it then its their problem not yours because you did everything in your power not to offend.
I agree. Kaykay, you are always coming from a position of respect and shouldnt feel that you need to be quiet.
I also, think this issue is much bigger than homosexuality, even though that is what I addressed as it seems to be the hot button at the moment. It extends to all issues of moral contention.
I posted this question in another thread but I'm gonna say it again cause I'd like to get some thoughts on it:
Why is it that when someone says homosexuality is a sin and they do not support gay marriage they are acccused of being intolerant and narrow minded? Now before someone says I just contradicted myself let me clarify that there are many laws that people don't support but that doesn't mean they would or want to deny people that right. If the world wants to legalize gay marriage, go ahead. If the world wants to give gays equal rights, go ahead. Do I support it, no way. Would I deny anyone that right, no way.
I guess my question is would you people that are so pro-gay (for lack of a better word) have Bible believing Christians deny that they are Bible-believing Christians? Bible believing Christians in general believe that homosexuality is a sin. They can no more deny that anymore than you people can deny that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. And why does a declaration of that belief cause you to jump to the conclusion that they are intolerant?
With regard to this, there are many things that I may agree with because of my faith that I don't require of others. For example, the Catholic church does not believe in divorce, but does that mean it should be illegal? Jews believe that you should be circumcized, but does that mean it should be required for all? (Some/Many) Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, but where does that leave the rest of us? Why should same-sex marriage be banned, simply because your religion sees it as a sin? And why should you, as a follower of your religion, feel required to mandate your beliefs through the law to non-believers? Why not just say that it's not accepted in your church?
I agree. Kaykay, you are always coming from a position of respect and shouldnt feel that you need to be quiet.
I also, think this issue is much bigger than homosexuality, even though that is what I addressed as it seems to be the hot button at the moment. It extends to all issues of moral contention.
You're right-certainly not just homosexuality. I've gotten in "mega-trouble" discussing partial birth abortion too!!
You know Ecclesiastes says to everything there is a season...a time to speak,
a time to remain silent etc" I know that we need to be led of the Spirit. It's a tough thing to discern sometimes though.
I live in Texas (suburb of Dallas.) While Dallas is a fairly cosmopolitan, sophisticated area....the south has traditionally been dubbed "The Bible Belt" and maybe I've lived a sheltered life somewhat here. To be blunt, I have really been somewhat astonished at how Christians are hated by some segments on this forum. Of course, Jesus said that the world hated Him and we would also be hated. And maybe this kind of mild social persecution is just a small example of it.
But having said that, I guess, we as Christians, just need to be careful that if we offend, it's because our message is offensive, not our lack of love, compassion or wisdom. Am I making sense?
You're right-certainly not just homosexuality. I've gotten in "mega-trouble" discussing partial birth abortion too!!
You know Ecclesiastes says to everything there is a season...a time to speak,
a time to remain silent etc" I know that we need to be led of the Spirit. It's a tough thing to discern sometimes though.
I live in Texas (suburb of Dallas.) While Dallas is a fairly cosmopolitan, sophisticated area....the south has traditionally been dubbed "The Bible Belt"
and maybe I've lived a sheltered life somewhat here. To be blunt, I have really been somewhat astonished at how Christians are hated by some segments on this forum. Of course, Jesus said that the world hated Him and we would also be hated. And maybe this kind of mild social persecution is just an example of it.
I think it is more than mild social persecution once you go beyond these forums. Otherwise I totally agree. I suppose it should come as no surprise that Christianity is despised.
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When to speak
) But it seems like anytime I have expressed an opinion, however lovingly, it is not received in the spirit I meant it, at least when it expresses any conviction that is opposed by the listener. So...is it wisdom to just "shut-up?" Am I doing more damage than good in those instances? I think I may be.
discussing partial birth abortion too!!
