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Well, look at it this way... maybe there are fun times to be had there. It's like when you get ready to take a trip to somewhere new. Don't you like to read up on it first... get a little background about it, where are the best places to go and sights to see.
You may surprise yourself and find out that the next life will be the best you ever had.
Ah Yes!!! someone from S. California expounding on "Fantasy Land"
Well, look at it this way... maybe there are fun times to be had there. It's like when you get ready to take a trip to somewhere new. Don't you like to read up on it first... get a little background about it, where are the best places to go and sights to see.
You may surprise yourself and find out that the next life will be the best you ever had.
Ah yes, someone from S. California expounding on "Fantasyland".
Well, it's pretty obvious, you have not put much effort into finding out the truth about the Biblical God. And that was the choice you made. Because the Biblical God said. If you search for me with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your soul, you will surely find me.
That's an arrogant and presumptuous things to say. I've read much of the Bible (both the King James and NIV versions, including an annotated version of the NIV), an anthology of scholarly theological essays on the Bible written by believers (published by Cambridge University), an in-depth history of Christianity, and various articles on the Christianity Today website. I attended weekly Sunday services with my wife (then fiancee) at a Foursquare Christian church for over a year with the express purpose of giving Christianity a chance, because it was such a big part of her life. Because I like to be well rounded, I've also read much of the Bhagavad Gita and some of the Quran. I've read histories and commentaries on other religions, and I've studied a lot of "new age" spiritual philosophy. I attended a Buddhist temple for a few months,and a Unitarian-type church for a few months, and I've been involved with a Native American spiritual community. And I've read The God Delusion, to get the atheist viewpoint. Can you say that you've done that much comparative searching and studying to arrive at your own religious views? If you had, you'd see that there are other views of God that make much more sense from a love-and-fairness standpoint than does the Biblical God (which doesn't necessarily mean they're any more true, of course).
I think choosing to believe in something established that has a purpose and meaning is different than choosing to believe in some random thing a person clearly invented one day.
It might make more sense to ask if a Christian could choose to believe in say the Archangel Metatron or extraterrestrials.
How about this: What made you choose to believe in the Christian idea of God rather than, say, the Hindu idea? I think Jesus had a great message to preach, and I think there's a lot of wisdom in the Bible, but I also think there's a lot of terrible stuff in it, too. If one is starting with the premise that there is indeed a God, then the idea of reincarnation is much more consistent with a loving God than is the Christian idea of "you only have one shot to get it right for all eternity." With reincarnation, you live as many times as it takes to understand the lessons God wants you to understand. Eventually, everyone gets to heaven. Unlike some of the feel-good new-age models of spirituality, the established religions that believe in reincarnation don't let you of the hook morally. If you wrong someone in one life, then you suffer something similar in another life, so that you learn why it was wrong. In short, you learn empathy. And the punishment is commensurate with the crime, so to speak -- there's no eternal damnation for the acts committed during a short life. So if belief is a choice, then why wouldn't you choose to believe in a God who is so compassionate that he lets you live as many lives as you need to to understand his love?
I think choosing to believe in something established that has a purpose and meaning is different than choosing to believe in some random thing a person clearly invented one day.
It might make more sense to ask if a Christian could choose to believe in say the Archangel Metatron or extraterrestrials.
Well the idea is to pick anything that you currently don't believe in and then choose to believe it. I say it can't be done.
Well the idea is to pick anything that you currently don't believe in and then choose to believe it. I say it can't be done.
I don't think it can be done instantly if that's what you mean. However if after investigating various claims I found historical and experiential backing for something I think I could choose to believe it even if it's not confirmed by science.
If you can give me a purpose and credible witnesses for your three-headed elephant or whatever maybe I could choose to believe it.
How about this: What made you choose to believe in the Christian idea of God rather than, say, the Hindu idea?
I'll admit how I was raised had a good deal to do with it. I was probably less "indoctrinated" than my siblings who left the Church. My time in CDC was sporadic due to my disability and a certain distrust we had for the program. Still I heard and saw enough in my family's experience to keep me in that direction. My experience with priests and nuns was mostly good.
A great deal of my reading on religion was done on my own and I read about non-Christian religions since I was at least eleven or twelve. In High School I read some book by the Dalai Lama's brother and I was big into the Mayas as well as the Chinese so I read a good deal about their beliefs. India for some reason did not appeal to me and I still have some disconnection to religions originating in India.
To me reincarnation is unappealing and feels wrong for several reasons. For reincarnation to work individual human life, to me, becomes somewhat meaningless. We have to exist mostly as souls detached from the material universe. Our identity is an illusion. In some forms of Hinduism our individuality is even an illusion and these souls eventually all merge into some All-Being. I find that unappealing. In life I certainly don't see evidence we're not individuals or that human identity doesn't matter. That I can just as easily be a plant or a tree. I think there is something distinct and good in the various individual humans. Also the notion of karma, even if it's not the idiotic pop-culture Western idea, doesn't entirely seem to work.
That said in my most religiously uncertain period the Beliefnet test indicated I fit Sikhism the best. (This was the only time Catholicism was not the best fit in that test) And on looking into it there's a good deal I like, but there are some ideas of it that work less well. Still I've considered further investigating it before making a judgment. Unfortunately the Guru Granth Sahib is well over a thousand pages so would take me some time to really study.
There are things I find appealing about Taoism, but it's in many ways extremely vague and so not entirely enough to hang your hat on even for many of those who believe it.
I suppose that two of the main things that keep me where I am is the Eucharist and Purgatory. The idea that imperfect people can be purified after death appeals to me. It seems more merciful than some systems I hear where the imperfect or ignorant are simply damned, but also more "realistic" than the idea average sinful people are ready for Heaven without any preparation. The Eucharist provides a profound connection to the source of all life and knowledge. To me that's wonderful. (As in something full of wonder, not "wonderful" in a sing-song way)
Last edited by Thomas R.; 11-24-2009 at 07:14 AM..
I'll admit how I was raised had a good deal to do with it. I was probably less "indoctrinated" than my siblings who left the Church. My time in CDC was sporadic due to my disability and a certain distrust we had for the program. Still I heard and saw enough in my family's experience to keep me in that direction. My experience with priests and nuns was mostly good.
A great deal of my reading on religion was done on my own and I read about non-Christian religions since I was at least eleven or twelve. In High School I read some book by the Dalai Lama's brother and I was big into the Mayas as well as the Chinese so I read a good deal about their beliefs. India for some reason did not appeal to me and I still have some disconnection to religions originating in India.
To me reincarnation is unappealing and feels wrong for several reasons. For reincarnation to work individual human life, to me, becomes somewhat meaningless. We have to exist mostly as souls detached from the material universe. Our identity is an illusion. In some forms of Hinduism our individuality is even an illusion and these souls eventually all merge into some All-Being. I find that unappealing. In life I certainly don't see evidence we're not individuals or that human identity doesn't matter. That I can just as easily be a plant or a tree. I think there is something distinct and good in the various individual humans. Also the notion of karma, even if it's not the idiotic pop-culture Western idea, doesn't entirely seem to work.
That said in my most religiously uncertain period the Beliefnet test indicated I fit Sikhism the best. (This was the only time Catholicism was not the best fit in that test) And on looking into it there's a good deal I like, but there are some ideas of it that work less well. Still I've considered further investigating it before making a judgment. Unfortunately the Guru Granth Sahib is well over a thousand pages so would take me some time to really study.
There are things I find appealing about Taoism, but it's in many ways extremely vague and so not entirely enough to hang your hat on even for many of those who believe it.
I suppose that two of the main things that keep me where I am is the Eucharist and Purgatory. The idea that imperfect people can be purified after death appeals to me. It seems more merciful than some systems I hear where the imperfect or ignorant are simply damned, but also more "realistic" than the idea average sinful people are ready for Heaven without any preparation. The Eucharist provides a profound connection to the source of all life and knowledge. To me that's wonderful. (As in something full of wonder, not "wonderful" in a sing-song way)
Thanks, Thomas. I like that your responses are well thought out, rather than some of the knee-jerk responses that we see on this forum from people of all beliefs.
One thing you say is a main reason that I can't wholeheartedly believe in any existing religion. You say that you don't believe in reincarnation because you find the idea of living multiple lives and the merging of souls into an All-Being unappealing. I find the idea of living only one life and then being judged on it for all eternity unappealing. That tells me that people's beliefs are colored by their experiences, temperaments, personalities, hopes, and dreams, and ways that their brains process information -- and, therefore, beliefs are suspect. I know that my finding reincarnation appealing doesn't mean it's true, nor does my finding going to heaven, hell, or purgatory based on the actions of one life unappealing mean it's false. And the converse is true for your beliefs.
That's why I've shifted over the years to an evidence-based position, not a position based on the ideas I find most appealing or how I'd like reality to be. Most of the evidence that I see suggests that the atheist viewpoint is correct -- but there are enough mysteries that atheists can't explain and therefore sweep under the rug that I can't say I'm atheist. On the other hand, the Judeo-Christian notion of God has too many holes in it for me to believe in it. I therefore think that there may be something one could call God, but if so, it's vastly more complex than we do (and perhaps can) understand. Over the years, I've put together a model that explains as much as atheism does, and that still has a few holes. That's why I consider myself an agnostic. Naturally, I find the model that includes some version of God more appealing than the one that doesn't, because I'd like my consciousness to persist beyond the death of my physical body, but the honest truth is that I don't know.
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