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Old 05-16-2007, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,697 posts, read 3,476,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreameyes View Post
Jerz I think the bottom line is you're never going to get answers that satisfy you. The world will never get answers to spiritual matters. The world and spirituality just do not mix.
I respectfully disagree with this premise. IMHO, we evolve spiritually in this world more rapidly than in any other plane, because being human is simply hard. Our essences are spiritual, and non-judgmental and loving, and we're given these dense, heavy bodies that naturally overwhelm us with desire, greed, lust, you name it. Then, we're put in a world filled with people who have been saddled with the same obstacle, and then we're challenged to interact with others in a loving, positive way. In other words, the perfect conditions for us to test our spiritual mettle, so to speak.

And I do believe that many of us are ready to, and are, finding out answers to spiritual and metaphysical matters. It's all a matter of an individual's readiness to accept reality on its own terms and to resist the urge to filter reality through one's own preconceived notions.
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Old 05-16-2007, 05:21 PM
 
1,703 posts, read 5,135,456 times
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Originally Posted by mb919 View Post
I respectfully disagree with this premise. IMHO, we evolve spiritually in this world more rapidly than in any other plane, because being human is simply hard. Our essences are spiritual, and non-judgmental and loving, and we're given these dense, heavy bodies that naturally overwhelm us with desire, greed, lust, you name it. Then, we're put in a world filled with people who have been saddled with the same obstacle, and then we're challenged to interact with others in a loving, positive way. In other words, the perfect conditions for us to test our spiritual mettle, so to speak.

And I do believe that many of us are ready to, and are, finding out answers to spiritual and metaphysical matters. It's all a matter of an individual's readiness to accept reality on its own terms and to resist the urge to filter reality through one's own preconceived notions.
That is a very nice post. I do agree somewhat and I guess I should have clarified spirituality as far as God, Christ things like that. Spirituality is such a broad word and is not necessarily meshed with Christianity for many.
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Old 05-16-2007, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 11,802,095 times
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Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Okay, this is a spinoff of triton1's thread about bad stuff and good people and all that.

I thought one of his comments warranted a thread of its own. He commented that we're subjected to suffering because of Original Sin.

I have some questions about that.

1. If we're *all* supposed to suffer for Adam and Eve's sin, then why do some of us receive such an unbelievable amount of suffering, and others comparatively little? I'm not talking about people's perceptions of "suffering"--I might stub my toe and cry for a month and you might stub your toe and say, "Well, no biggie." I'm talking about serious suffering. You might have one person who has a childhood with the standard illnesses, one or two bullies on the schoolyard and perhaps his "big" suffering in his recollection is a parent's divorce. So...he suffered. But then you might have a little girl who is molested repeatedly, had legs broken by a trusted adult for being "bad," been the product of not one but multiple divorces, and then she turns 18 and is just about to get out of her situation but, say, learns she has cancer. Why is *she* suffering so much more for the sins of two people presumably thousands of years ago, but not the boy mentioned in this paragraph...if we are *all* paying for Adam and Eve's sin?

2. That brings me to my second question: children. Some people say we suffer because we have free will and as such, do stupid things and make mistakes. That's fine...if we're suffering for *our own* missteps. What about children who are subjected to suffering at the hands of another? Often for years? That's being subjected to someone *else's* missteps--and it sure isn't the child's free will.

3. I don't remember what my Question Number Three is. I should stop talking so much and using run-on sentences because I end up forgetting my original points. Oh wait! I do remember. Some people have said we suffer because that makes us keep testing our faith. So why would some people (see the scenarios above) be tested over and over and in totally brutal ways? What makes them more "needing" of testing...especially, again, when you're talking about children? How could a five-year-old who just wants to be able to go to sleep at night without having to worry that this is One of the Nights When Daddy Comes In "need" her faith tested? She hasn't even developed faith yet. In fact, in that case, it's likely that she has no faith at all--or at the very least, feels God must not love her.

4. Why would God allow such intense suffering of children that would automatically make it about a thousand times harder for them to "believe," then crack down on them for "not believing"? Meanwhile, loving and accepting into heaven the person who did grow up with upstanding gentle parents and a good situation...who pretty much automatically has no reason to wonder that there might not be a God? Is that fair?

Okay...any input would be interesting.
If you find the answers to all of this let me know, because these are the things I have the most trouble with.
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Old 05-16-2007, 06:03 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,923,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mb919 View Post
I respectfully disagree with this premise. IMHO, we evolve spiritually in this world more rapidly than in any other plane, because being human is simply hard. Our essences are spiritual, and non-judgmental and loving, and we're given these dense, heavy bodies that naturally overwhelm us with desire, greed, lust, you name it. Then, we're put in a world filled with people who have been saddled with the same obstacle, and then we're challenged to interact with others in a loving, positive way. In other words, the perfect conditions for us to test our spiritual mettle, so to speak.

And I do believe that many of us are ready to, and are, finding out answers to spiritual and metaphysical matters. It's all a matter of an individual's readiness to accept reality on its own terms and to resist the urge to filter reality through one's own preconceived notions.
This post absolutely fascinated me. I keep reading it and reading it. It almost sounds like a reincarnation belief, which is one I do think is possible.
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Old 05-16-2007, 06:04 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,923,411 times
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Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
If you find the answers to all of this let me know, because these are the things I have the most trouble with.
This is terrible to say, irishmom, but...I'm kind of glad to hear this. I mean maybe I'm not such a freak after all, if these are the common questions. Sorry for the selfishness there... ...and may we find all the answers! (It's doubtful, but why not shoot for the stars...)
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,697 posts, read 3,476,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
This post absolutely fascinated me. I keep reading it and reading it. It almost sounds like a reincarnation belief, which is one I do think is possible.
Well, without going too much into detail, I am a very firm believer in reincarnation. I was raised Catholic, but from the time I was a child I never really believed most of its teachings. I had a couple of major life events that made me want to re-examine my life from a different perspective, and also had a couple of spiritual "awakenings" (I can't think of a better way to describe them) and then it all just sort of clicked for me. To have arrived at reincarnation as a fact of life has been nothing less than transformative for me. My entire view of life, people, and world events couldn't be any more different now than it was even 3 or 4 years ago.

The reason that I don't wade into this forum often is because I have absolutely no desire to try to convince anyone else of my beliefs. We are all on our own journeys, and for many, Christianity or whatever religion they follow is a useful and necessary part of that journey.
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:08 PM
 
1,703 posts, read 5,135,456 times
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Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
This is terrible to say, irishmom, but...I'm kind of glad to hear this. I mean maybe I'm not such a freak after all, if these are the common questions. Sorry for the selfishness there... ...and may we find all the answers! (It's doubtful, but why not shoot for the stars...)
Those questions I think have crossed every Christians mind and are a little concerting too. With all due respect though I think many here have given good answers, the best you'll get in this life. The question is are you going to accept them or not?
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:59 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,923,411 times
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Originally Posted by dreameyes View Post
Those questions I think have crossed every Christians mind and are a little concerting too. With all due respect though I think many here have given good answers, the best you'll get in this life. The question is are you going to accept them or not?
Well...I guess not...if it's a matter of acceptance. I guess I really don't. I do think there were some good and heartfelt answers, so thank you, everyone, for contributing. There is tons of food for thought here.
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:00 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,923,411 times
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Originally Posted by dreameyes View Post
Those questions I think have crossed every Christians mind and are a little concerting too.
I don't think, though, that this means we shouldn't stop asking. These questions may be old news to some, but the fact that they're still in question says I'm not the only person totally confused by them.
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:17 AM
 
1,703 posts, read 5,135,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I don't think, though, that this means we shouldn't stop asking. These questions may be old news to some, but the fact that they're still in question says I'm not the only person totally confused by them.
I totally agree. I'm just saying that some people (i'm not saying you) will never accept the answers that are available to us because they don't satisfy the intellectual mind and never will in this life.
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